Ideas of self employment, Any Advice?

Hmmm, interesting posts here...

I think an awful lot depends on your personality, it's hard thing to make a business succeed, you need to be just the right blend of 'nice guy and shrewd businessman' people have to like dealing with you and trust you, but you you have to be able to strike a balance between keeping your customers happy and keeping your profit margins worthwhile..

the most important thing is that you love what your doing, there's so much work for often so little financial reward that if you love it anyway, if it does fail even through no fault of you own at least you wont consider it completely wasted..

I have never found units or insurance a problem, in this economic climate there are so many vacant units sitting around, there are tons of deals just to get your name on the lease, security is all with units... Insurance is no problem, i have drive any vehicle (up to £500k) policy plus public liability plus cars in transit and customers cars in the unit, i think this year it's cost me £2600 which is a drop in the ocean when compared with other costs! I've found i'll probably need to do a 10-12 hour day to properly be able to bill for 8, so you'll have to factor so many things into your business plan/model

My personal take on this and your situation is that it's pretty crazy to start up straight from uni, I've seen your skills on here and I'm pretty impressed, but the skills are only half of it, how to deal with customers, what they 'say' and what they 'mean' how to price jobs and most importantly how to productionise and streamline your working practices so you actually make a profit are vital skills, even six months in industry if you keep your eyes open and your nose in everyone else's business will teach you that..

Also what you can do to your own car when you feel like working on it is one thing, it's quite another at 2am on a unday night after a whole day doing a job that should have taken you an hour, for an arsey customer that wants his car/part/machine back first thing Monday and wont take any excuses is quite another...

I'm very lucky in that i have a great customer base who give me more work than i can manage, so i can turn away most of the passing work that stinks, so i almost never have any problems with customers paying, 99% of my customers i would happily let take their cars back without even talking about money, knowing full well thanks to a long a working relationship that when the invoice lands on their mat it wont be an issue, back in the real world however i know of several businesses that have been taken down by even big 'reputable' companies refusing to honour invoices

For these reasons i'd also be very wary about setting up a business on the basis of one companies promise of work, get it in writing if so and even then be wary, so many companies even BIG names are right on the edge and there;s no way you'd know about it, you don't want your fledgling business to be a collateral damage statistic in someone else's insolvency suit.. You definitely need to build up a core of people who will use you out of choice, even if just to give you a fallback position whilst you recover, you don't want to be forced into the position where you have to decide between borrowing to save your business or shutting it down.

Just my two pence worth, hope i don't come across too negative, i think you should go for it IF you really know what you're doing and it's what you really want!

I think it might help people on here draw conclusions, if you let us know what work experience you have, (if i havnt missed it..)

I thought this thread was winding down, but then a load more good advice hits. Thanks.

Edd raises an important question in my previous work experience. I hadn't actually mentioned it, but I should explain really. First off, although I'm strait out of uni, I'll actually be 23 soon, I'm 2 years older than my education suggests, thanks to a year out when an apprenticeship fell through, and leaving a course that turned out not to be what I'd hoped for. I've done 4 years at Halfords part time in the bike-hut, All but 1 year of that I was the only bike mechanic (In quite a large store), and would deal with all the specialist orders and repair jobs. I know it's easy to sniff at that, as the price scale is completely different, but it's actually a lot of experience dealing with a product that belongs to a customer, that I'm doing work to, and I have to keep them informed about, often delivering the bad news that no-ones bothered putting the order through with the suppliers since I was last in.. To give some idea of whether I did a good job or not, since I've been at uni, there have been several customers who have chased down when I'm back for the holidays to get their bikes booked in specifically for me to do. As well as that, I did a work experience placement of 1 or 2 days a week for a year at a local composites company, who are a relatively small company, but growing fast, 4 staff including the owner who's only in his late 20's, I paid a lot of attention to how the business worked, as I've always been interested in self employment, and I think I learned a lot from it, about the business and about dealing with custom work for customers. I've also done 4 weeks full time as a CNC machine operator, and 6 months of 2 or 3 days a week as a learning assistant at a college, helping students with learning difficulties do the practical work for their National Diplomas. Basically mundane tasks, but I was mostly there to keep them safe and stop them breaking stuff. I never actually applied for the job, I was asked if I wanted it having been in a few times to fix my own car when I was a mechanical engineering student, and they were impressed with my work/attitude so asked if I wanted a job. And finally back when I was 16 I worked in a smaller bike shop as a mechanic for about 6 months. Not the most amazingly impressive resume I know, but bearing in mind I'm 23 I don't think it's terrible.

It's probably also worth mentioning that my parents ran their own small furniture making company for the early part of my life, and my dad has been self employed at various points as a cabinet maker, and boat builder/fitter, so I've grown up around practical people.


Thanks for the advice Edd, I don't mind negative views at all, I'm not looking for a rose tainted view of things, I'm looking for the reality of it. I'd like to think that I'm actually relatively good with regards to most of the points you make besides the obvious practical skills. I learn fast and I notice a lot about my environment in a work-place. Although I'm fresh from education, I think I've got a fairly good idea of what I'd be letting my self in for in terms of pricing. "keep your eyes open and your nose in everyone else's business" is exactly what I've always done in every job I've had. I've always been asking more questions than I need to in order to do my designated job because I'm curious as to how things work. I also find it fun working out the most efficient way to do things, which I think helps a lot.

It sounds like I'm trying to sell my self to you guys, but I'm not at all, I'm just trying to give you the best picture to explain why I want to do this. It's not just a whimsical idea to avoid finding a job, it's something I'm serious about, but I'm trying to be realistic, which is why I'm not saying anything for certain yet, and why I'm looking into things a lot first. Without sounding big-headed, I really don't think I'd struggle to find a job if I chose to go the conventional path.


Surprisingskoda, I know what you mean about presentation and public image. Your web presence is a big deal in this industry at the moment. Companies get killed by a couple of unwise responses to negative feedback on forums, and companies get made by a positive image and presence on forums. (Tarty-bikes and trials-forum.co.uk is a damn good example of a company doing well just be being nice guys on a forum.) I'd count photography as a bit of a hobby of mine, and I'm always keen to show off my work, so I'd be very keen to get some examples of my work up on a site. Even if I only made the first few of the product I've mentioned possibly making for this company, it would be great to show off what I can do, I can't say what it is, but photos of it on a website would look very favorable. I'm also increasingly fussy about my work-space being tidy. As well as the good image you mention, it's just a lot nicer to work in a clean space than a filthy one, I'd try and make my workshop something to be proud of for sure.

Then there's also my Mini, from day one I've been building it as a rolling C.V. as much as anything else. The build will be documented, and if this business idea goes ahead, it'll be getting pride of place in the workshop. It's getting to the point where I'm designing parts of it to just be fancy for the sake of it, even if there's no benefit. ;D haha. For instance I'm currently re-designing the gear linkage so I can run a Spiyker style exposed linkage instead of just an MR2 shifter, and I'm pretty much settled on pull-rod front suspension just to make the otherwise empty front end look a bit fancier. If things go ahead I'll likely also be keeping my Scirocco and probably doing it up as either a show car to entice the VW guys and the other more looks orientated scenes, or a road rally car for a bit of fun, and to get out to some events before the Mini's done. There's a few things with it I'd like to try out in either case.

Sorry, I'm just ranting now, but hopefully it's putting across the idea that I'm not just a kid who can't be arsed to find a job, so thinks it's the easy way out. I'm well aware it's not, and I've been thinking about it since my mid-teens. Admittedly the idea has changed from push-bikes to cars over the years, as there's no money in bikes since everything went to far-eastern production, and fortunately my interest in cars jumped up after I got my license.


Edit: Gaz, sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you, I read your post earlier but was in the middle of uni work so didn't stop to reply. Interesting stuff, it'd be great to talk about it sometime, will you be at A52 this coming weekend?

hey robin no worries mate, I'm on a road trip to wales on saturday so cant come to play on the beach, but if you're about A52 on friday let me know and i will pop down for a chat.

Cut to the chase , do you have any guaranteed work other than the promise of some from people who can't make a profit doing it themselves ?
Do you have 600-800 worth of turnover per week or the funds to support that amount of money per week until you have that sort of minimum turnover if you have normal business overheads ?

If the answer is no then you don't have a business full stop .

Business plans are pure fantasy unless you have a solid idea of the amount of work and it's value and a realistic idea of what percentage you will actually get .

Website and work from home until you need to have room for stuff or you will be paying to store other people's curse word .

If you think that you will be able to build your own car and turn enough money over to survive on your own
Think again .

I started at home then took a small unit on once I had enough regular customers to cover the bills then steadily grew the business over the last 10 years , didn't have a business plan just counted the money each week .

If you can't find enough work to make a wage working at home then
You certainly don't need premises

Good thread.... Nice one Robin, great to see someone enthusiastic about a potential business and giving it some proper thought.

I'm not going to give any advice on a public forum because (without checking) I don't think my PL insurance covers it ;D but I'm a fully qualified, self-employed accountant with sixteen years experience in practice. So if you want any advice specific to your situation (or potential situation) feel free to PM me.

Funnily enough, I have an actual job too, doing something entirely different from accountancy, which I love, and there's a lot to be said for it!

Cheers guys, yeah, I fully intend to dabble in the odd bike part. I've been wanting to make my self a 24" trials frame for years, and I've got most of the parts waiting around for a frame, so I'll see how that goes. A couple of mates expressed some interest in custom frames too, but that'd be on a non-profit basis, as they're close friends. The trouble is the market's flooded with cheep Taiwanese made parts, which are on the whole genuinely good, so unless someone want's something very specific that's not available, they won't pay the money for UK made stuff. Bikes are simple enough that a couple of far eastern factories chucking out cheep parts can cover most peoples needs, so the market gets saturated quickly. There's money to be made there, but not really in UK production, as the price jump to your 'new' product has to be quite small, because the difference between the existing competition and your product is likely to be equally small. I'd definitely play around with bikes, but more as a hobby than as a stable part of the business. I do know a few people quite high up in the trials world, so there could be an opportunity for a few interesting bits. Still, all that said if I find my self struggling for automotive work it could keep things ticking over if I'm careful with it.

Froggy, at this stage, the simple answer to most of that is 'I don't know yet'. I'm not at a stage to be accepting work, so I have zero guaranteed work at this instant. I 100% don't have a business right now, I'm looking into whether to start one, not trying to have one already. Working from home's not an option for a few reasons, mostly no access, no work space, no legal ability to use a residential property to run a fabrication business ect.. Not to mention that I think some customers would be less than impressed to find out I make stuff in my shed. It'd be nice to work up from nothing, but I think if I do this I'll need to jump start a bit to a point which makes the work possible. I'm hoping that the possibility of work through the company I've mentioned would give me most of that jump start. It all needs looking into more at this stage. As for "other than the promise of some from people who can't make a profit doing it themselves", that's simply not true. I can't go into details right now, but firstly, it's not guaranteed at this stage, it's just something that's been discussed, and could be a possibility, and secondly, they absolutely can make a profit, I'd be making less than 1/4 of the product in terms of value, they'd be making the other 3/4's, they're not kitted out for, and don't have space for the specific production of the bits I'd be making, but they can't sell it without them. The idea would be that rather than them expanding, they'd use my business as an extension of theirs. Everything would be pretty secure in terms of getting the work from them as long as they actually sell some of the product, but it's the type of product that's made to pre-orders, not stocked, so there would probably be ~5 months warning if the demand dried up. They'd likely be putting almost as much money into the jigs and set-up at my premises as I would, so it would be absolutely in their interest to keep me in business.

JonnySierra, Thanks, I'll definitely keep you in mind when I come to look at the financial specifics, as I say, I'll be looking more seriously in a couple of weeks when I'm home for Easter. At the moment I'm working my backside off on my Dissertation (hense all my long replies being in the small hours), but that'll be over by Friday, and I'll be able to think about it properly for the first time in a while.

Customers might not care (although I bet they will feel that a unit is more professional), but neighbours and the council will be very interested.

A mate with a vw tuning business partitioned off a section of his shop with comfy chairs , display cabinets etc . Total waste of time as customers want to mooch round the workshop and see what's in build and chat with the staff . Most parts buying is online now so unlikely to actually see any customers unless they are bringing vehicles to you for work .

OK, I've kept out of this because I didn't want to be negative.

You will fail if you don't make realistic cashflow projections
You will fail if you don't have a strong portfolio of previous commercial work which is directly applicable to your target market
You will fail if you don't have contacts, reputation, referrals, etc.
You will fail if you base your business plan on untested assumptions, or fail to fully test them

I had finance in place, I had a 3 year business plan, I was entering an expanding market. I had relevant qualifications, I had an adviser from Business Link, I was a member of the local council supported business development groups, I did all the social media promotion, I paid fat money to Google to be ranked, etc.

I am writing to companys house to tell them to strike my dissolved business off the register

Its hard getting started. I thought that it would be somehow easier to work for myself than to get another job when I was made redundant. I was very very wrong.

And if what you hate is burocracy and sucking up to shitters and all that - then being your own boss may not be for you...

Good luck if you go for it.