wooffy
Part of things
Posts: 31
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Mar 16, 2012 17:54:25 GMT
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Limited liability is nothing like it used to be to prevent companies with debts phoenixing on a regular basis and with banks etc wanting personal guarantees from directors these days it's probably not worth it. Don't forget the vat threshold for turnover (I believe it's £73,000 these days, and remember that's turnover not profit) it may be advantageous registering early so you can claim vat back on materials and equipment etc. Re the coding, I used to build truck bodies (mainly 27 tonne beavertails etc) and there was only one coded welder there and the work he produced was garbage. All in all good luck get plenty of research in and stock up on plenty of beans on toast  |
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IDY
Part of things
Posts: 893
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Mar 16, 2012 18:03:18 GMT
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I don't have much to add to this discussion, but I will say that it's worthwhile considering setting up a limited company. Yes, there are more reporting requirements - but the advantage is that if it all goes horribly wrong you won't be personally liable for any debts incurred. You'd lose your investment, but nothing else. My Dad has been self-employed as a sole trader in the past, and he has said that if he were to ever go it along again then he'd go for a Limited company. It is something worth taking advice on as the rules and tax advantages can change slightly every year. When I first set up the advice I was given was - if your turnover is over the £100K mark you should be considering setting up as a limited company. (but that was 19 years ago) |
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Last Edit: Mar 16, 2012 18:04:18 GMT by IDY
I will get round to finishing it at some point
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Mar 16, 2012 18:26:55 GMT
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....All in all good luck get plenty of research in and stock up on plenty of beans on toast Haha, thanks. Don't worry, I'm pleanty used to living on next to nothing thanks to uni! I'm generally pretty good at living off very little money. I'm a 3rd year student with only a £200 overdraft for a reason  Someone mentioned having a part time job elseware, which I'd be happy to do if it turned out to be necessary. I'm quite well connected in terms of part time work, so I can always earn my self enough money to get by, and usually with quite flexible hours. I have thought about the public company idea, and it's not something I'm very clued up on, so it's something I'd be looking into a little more once I've decided if the business would work in principle first. Any advice or info on the topic's more than welcome though, or just a point in the direction of where I should look for info. ianboyd, Thank for the advice, it's good to hear both sides of things, so I'm not just wanting people to go 'yeah, it'll be easy mate', because that's not realistic. I know there's risk, I know it'll need hard work, and I know I could very easily make more money in the short term by just getting a job in an existing company. But, that doesn't change what I want to do. If I do this, I'll be doing it out of a desire to do it, and on the chance of it going well. I'm not one for taking the most sensible/traditional path through life, there's no fun in that, I have zero desire to fit into the average demographic, I'm here to get the most out of life, not just follow the easiest path. Part of the trouble for me, is that I don't move up through big companies. I don't do brown nosing, and I don't do management bull-curse word. Peoples dishonesty has effected me in quite a big way personally in my childhood, and as such, I just don't do it, I'd rather be poor and honest. I know it's possible to get high up in companies and be a nice guy, I know people who've done it/are doing it, but I'm not sure the chances of me managing to rise to a decent wage in a large company are any better than they are of me making the same amount self employed. The only other realistic option for me would be to try and get involved with another small company, which I'd have absolutely no objection to doing, but I'd like to explore the idea of self employment properly before dismissing it. I could put it off on the very sound idea that the experience in the mean time would help me out, but I don't know where I'll be in 5 years time, and there's a good chance I'll have a lot more to loose in 5 years than I do know, so the idea may not be any more feasible then than it is now. As such, I think it's worth some time to at least consider and research doing it now. |
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Mar 16, 2012 18:53:08 GMT
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Limited liability is nothing like it used to be to prevent companies with debts phoenixing on a regular basis and with banks etc wanting personal guarantees from directors these days it's probably not worth it. Don't forget the vat threshold for turnover (I believe it's £73,000 these days, and remember that's turnover not profit) it may be advantageous registering early so you can claim vat back on materials and equipment etc. Re the coding, I used to build truck bodies (mainly 27 tonne beavertails etc) and there was only one coded welder there and the work he produced was garbage. All in all good luck get plenty of research in and stock up on plenty of beans on toast we never give directors guarantees, we just say that it's not company policy to give guarantees, and it's never stopped us, but it has possibly held us back at times see an accountant about whether it's worth being Ltd, or VAT registered, if you do become limited, put any lease in the company name, and possibly consider putting the assets in a separate company, slightly more work, but makes it difficult for someone to sieze the assets, probably not a problem now, but could be in the future, the best way is to sort these things from the start, so ask your accountant. |
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Mar 16, 2012 19:24:50 GMT
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Limited liability is nothing like it used to be to prevent companies with debts phoenixing on a regular basis and with banks etc wanting personal guarantees from directors these days it's probably not worth it. Don't forget the vat threshold for turnover (I believe it's £73,000 these days, and remember that's turnover not profit) it may be advantageous registering early so you can claim vat back on materials and equipment etc. Yep. I set myself up a limited company. There are certain tax advantages to doing so, and there are accountants about that specialise in running such set-ups on a flat-rate basis. (Also plenty of sharks too based offshore in Jersey or IoM, so watch out.) I didn't get asked for any personal guarantees from my bank manager either. Best to shop around for a decent private bank. Your accountant will probably recommend a few. (Don't expect them to grasp anything about what you do except in the very broadest sense.) If you're clients are VAT registered, there's no reason not to register yourself and then apply to get on the flat rate scheme. Depends on the industry, but for engineering it means 13.5% for the first year (14.5% thereafter) which is a nice bonus if you're not planning spending a lot early on. |
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Mar 16, 2012 19:43:48 GMT
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see an accountant about whether it's worth being Ltd, or VAT registered, if you do become limited, put any lease in the company name, and possibly consider putting the assets in a separate company, slightly more work, but makes it difficult for someone to sieze the assets, probably not a problem now, but could be in the future Massive +1 to all of this. Take the time and visit as many accountants as you can until you find someone you're happy to share secrets with and to take advice from. |
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Mar 16, 2012 19:46:27 GMT
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we never give directors guarantees, we just say that it's not company policy to give guarantees, and it's never stopped us, but it has possibly held us back at times 'Orrible things, directors' personal guarantees. Keep me in a job though  I've nothing much to add to this except general encouragement. You've got the talent to do it and the correct mentality to make it work. It's definitely worth looking into ways of doing it as a part time thing initially to build up your customer base/reputation before comitting more time/money/life than you'd be able to recover. |
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...proper medallion man chest wig motoring. |
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mirafioriman
Posted a lot
My next project.......
Posts: 1,361
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Mar 16, 2012 22:37:25 GMT
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I can't really comment on running your own business because I've never done it.
It sounds appealing to me though. At least you can do things your own way and if it doesn't work out it you can accept that it's down to you. Working for other people in my experience means that you get told what to do and how to do it, yet if it all goes wrong it's your fault.
Having observed others who work for themselves or have set up their own businesses and appear successful it seems start small and gradually build up as you go along.
There are many who run big, rich businesses who started as a small one man operation even just part-time working from home.
One thing's for sure you don't get rich working for someone else. I think you are doing it right researching everything before you make any decisions or enter into any commitments.
Good luck!
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Mar 16, 2012 22:46:51 GMT
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Don't know what your income will be like for the first few years but qualifying for working tax credit is a huge bonus for me, as it means that even if work is quiet there's still enough to put no frills beans on the table at least Don't forget there's no sick pay though being self employed... |
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I hope I can add something. I learned a while ago that you can't tell anybody anything about them, but what you can do is tell them about yourself, and let them pick up your point through that. So I'll try that. Last June I started working for myself. I was 25 and a half, with all my debts cleared, and a few A levels (all academic and useless in the trade!) to my name. I started at 18/19 in a supermarket/offlicence, and within 6 months was a supervisor. I had about 6 jobs in 5 years, and managed two start-up businesses and successfully launched them and established business contacts and trade for them both. Then I got sick of working for other people, and having seen them succeed on the back of my hard work, thought I'd give it a go. I wasn't doing much and I had started eating into my savings, bad idea, so I used them to cancel all my debts and actually made myself penniless Gave away all the money i had left and started fresh. Anyway that's where I came from, with experience, but no money or qualifications (well, a Business Studies A level), and a frustrated desire to do some meaningful work. I found a unit very quickly after deciding to start dismantling cars. It was actually 400 yards from my mums house (where I'd moved back into for a while), and to date I've never paid a deposit or in advance, and in fact I haven't paid since December, not that it's much. I was fortunate, and you would be too, to get into an industrialised, commercial area, flanked by two engineering firms and both a truck and a car mechanic. I still haven't had to buy a forklift as good will lending has kept me going thus far. The mechanic has brought me trade (and I him) and the other guys are all car-friendly, easy to talk to, and helpful. What I'm saying is, life can be easier in a shared yard, but DO NOT share your unit. I have had people sharing the unit and I ended up forcing one lot to put on security, and then when they persisted in leaving the door unlocked I got them kicked out. Never again. I started with virtually no money. I sold a couple of project cars and some high value parts to get me around £3k, all of which was poured back into tools and cars to break. I had a few tools already but I've had to buy stuff like a compressor and impact bits and air-tools etc. Old tools are still OK though. Buy tools as you need, not all at once. I never took a penny from anyone else in the form of a loan, not any bank or any family etc, but I had to scrape and grind and hunt down the backs of sofas manys a night. It was tight, and it will be for you, and they say you will take three years to make a profit although 8 months in I can say that's not always true lol. If you can do it, you're far better off without loans. People stare at me like I'm stupid, but I work 97 hours a week. I was forcibly told by a civil servant that it was impossible for me to work my guess of 100 hours a week, but I worked it out and I am, and have been since I started. I love it though so it's bearable. I do not work Sundays; there is a whole precious 24 hours where no thought of work passes my mind, and you would do well to set time aside to stave off mental breakdown. One of the start-ups I managed required some mega hours, not quite as much, but a lot, and in four months it destroyed me - the business survived and did well, but I did not, and it took me 6 weeks before I could work again, so be careful with your health. Get plenty of sleep and always take care of yourself - doing something stupid to save ten minutes could mean not being able to work the rest of the week... Cash flow will always be tight, but no cash, no goods is the only way to work with small order clients. An upfront price and stick to it is a good policy also - I get a lot of customers coming from other breakers where the price has gone up between the phone call and then going to collect it. I do all my books myself (A level maths coming in handy - maybe they weren't so useless after all!) but that's hard work and is an hour every night. An accountant will keep you right but you can manage it yourself if you get the right info. Now, insurance. If the public are going to be able to step into your premises, you need public liability up to a million quid. You can always run without that but that's a steep precipice to be walking on the edge of. If you rent the land, then the landlord should have PLI on the yard or outside area, but if it's not shared then you would be wise to look into that. NEVER let a client use a tool, although I find if they're eastern europeans they can get what they want themselves faster and neater than me. They pay me for the bit, and do all the work to get it off. Which is another good point - half my customers are foreign and it serves very, VERY well to be all-encompassing. Too many people in every trade in the UK are still racist or bigoted and often I find it's the foreign nationals with the money to spend, and the desire to spend it. Back to insurance and I reckon trade might not suit you really. Unless you intend to fit parts but that might be better left alone. You'll need liability and motor risks then, whereas you can just forego that and not have to pay out. I tried to diversify a little, and do as much as I could, but I quickly found it was best to just do one thing and do it well. I don't fit any of the parts I take off - in fact I fitted a set of E36 angeleyes today, and it was the first car I've worked on that wasn't mine since January 6th. It isn't worth it. Build up a rapport with a mechanic or two and they can fit what you make, and can send people to you for custom bellhousings and exhaust mounts etc. Contents insurance will never cover the value of your stuff, so you want every deterrent possible. CCTV, Alarms, Bg Nasty Dog... but still expect to be robbed. And finally, having written for ages, I'll finish with the best bit - what it feels like to be your own boss. YOU decide when you are open, what hours, what days, what time lunch is at and how long it is. If you need to go somewhere, you can. YOU own whatever you make. YOU are the person that makes it all tick and the quality parts that go out were made by YOU. When your business is mentioned or someone passes a good comment, that's not just the business, but an extension of YOU they are talking about. There's no pride quite like you get from a glowing recommendation for your business. People have a different attitude to you as well - in fact, some are jealous, having not had the nerve to do it themself. Some will run you down for that very reason. But people take note of you as a business owner. It's not a reason to get into it, but it's a thing I've noticed in how I'm treated. Not only that, but people know you by the business then as well, and I find that just by being pleasant, you advertise the business as the same. And I apologise because I'm pretty sure this is completely incoherent and rambling, but it's very late and I've been working an awful lot today... just like I do EVERY day!! The gist of this should hopefully be helping push you towards it. Determination, skill, good attitude. That's all you need. I did it without the skill but I learnt as I went. I didn't even have any much knowledge, but the attitude part means you overcome all of that. If I can add anything more useful I'll come back at a non-sleepy hour and try again... |
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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the best tip i can give you if you want to go into one off fabrication involving cars is get a premium rate phone number so at least you get some income from the time you will spend on the phone with time wasters telling you all about their fantasy projects .
perfect example is these rwd sumps I'm doing for saab engine conversions , I'm doing one for a mate and thought it makes sense to get the bits together for a few while I'm cutting and turning stuff so i price the job as i would at work and il bet none of the enquiries will want to spend the sort of money that it actually costs to make something as a business .
people iknow doing thus type of work don't have premises and make a better living with no overheads as the businesss is aspirational and has no bread and butter element like many other parts of the motor trade .
i do bits and pieces when asked but wouldnt want to rely on it for a living as its just too hard to price one offs.
stick some adds on various forums for this type of thing and see what the response is but unless its very cheap or very specialised most people will do it themselves or seek out someone thats cheap .
the chap on here who does the cheap banded wheels most likely uses someone elses kit and has no overheads ,see my point ??
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Mar 18, 2012 17:10:37 GMT
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SurprisingSkoda, thanks, really good post, it reads a lot better than you give it credit for.  It's really nice to get someones experience of a similar situation. Thank you. Trust me, clients won't be touching my tools, and I'd be weary of letting them hang around too much. Also don't worry, I'm far from racist, and I'm happy to work for whoever will give me the money, where they're from or what they look like really doesn't phase me. Froggy, yeah, unfortunately I'm aware of the time-wasters I'll inevitably get going on about projects they'll never have the cash for, I'm thinking a hands-free kit would probably a good idea so I can at least get some work done while listening to them. ;D But yeah, unfortunately I can imagine finding people willing to pay the money for professionally made stuff will be the challenge, but the people are out there. It's a lot of the reason I'd be looking to do most things in short production runs, to get the costs down to a level people will actually pay, without leaving me with zero profit. I'll also be picking the products with which 'scenes' have the money floating around in at the front of my mind. It's something I've noticed, and discussed a few times with the guys who run this other company I've mentioned, but there's certain types of cars where people just won't pay the going rate for professional work, as they'll sooner do it themselves. I'll be back home for two weeks in a fought-nights time, and I'll be starting to look into things a lot more seriously then. I think the best bet's to get chatting with the company I'll be hoping to get some work through first off, get in touch with their accountant and see if they're any good. Hopefully by the end of the holidays I'll be in a position to make a decision one way or the other. Thanks again for the advice everyone. It's definitely appreciated. I'll be looking into the limited company aspect of things, but like you say, I think it's something I need to discuss with an accountant really. Thanks, Robin. |
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Mar 18, 2012 19:13:49 GMT
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Yep. I set myself up a limited company. There are certain tax advantages to doing so, and there are accountants about that specialise in running such set-ups on a flat-rate basis. (Also plenty of sharks too based offshore in Jersey or IoM, so watch out.) I didn't get asked for any personal guarantees from my bank manager either. Best to shop around for a decent private bank. Your accountant will probably recommend a few. (Don't expect them to grasp anything about what you do except in the very broadest sense.) If you're clients are VAT registered, there's no reason not to register yourself and then apply to get on the flat rate scheme. Depends on the industry, but for engineering it means 13.5% for the first year (14.5% thereafter) which is a nice bonus if you're not planning spending a lot early on. This is excellent advice. To clarify, I set up my own IT Consultancy in 1998, and got myself a very clued-up accountant. This sort of thing can be a legal minefield - don't try to do it yourself! Getting someone who knows what they're doing isn't as expensive as you might think. My accountant helped me when I needed to take on staff, and he also knew all the moves with VAT and me getting my guys cars and equipment etc. I sold my company (actually I sold my customer portfolio) to Fujitsu in 2005, and my accountant kept me right with all that entailed including my employees going to work for Fujitsu under what's called a Transfer of Undertaking. Good luck to you fella, hope you do well. |
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`state
Yorkshire and The Humber
Posts: 1,215
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Mar 18, 2012 20:15:59 GMT
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I went self employed about 18 months ago.I'm a decorator and theres thousands of decorators that are about.And most of them will work for very little and they`re standards are curse word.I`d had enough of doing lots of rush jobs and commercial work for the large company i worked for.Plus being paid very little extra for being foreman and running large jobs with no reward.
Now i only do private work.Do alot of country houses and churches and i love it.Very hard some weeks to make ends meet and the cash flow isnt regular but we get by and I'm 100% happier i did it.
Like you say do it now while you`ve got nothing to lose.Ive got a mortgage and two kids so its not being easy,just wish id done it alot sooner.
Oh and I'm one of those people that have asked froggy for a sump.The projects started and ive got the money to do it. I asked froggy rather than a company to do it as he`d already worked alot on the saab engine and his work is very good.Nothing to do with not being able to afford to get a company to do it.If i hadnt have seen his kitten project id have just rung Nige at Altiss to make me one.But id rather give someone some cash to plough into a project than to pay the tax man.
If you go into it with the attitude that just cos someone owns a brand of car he`ll be a timewaster with no money you wont get far.
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Look at all the plastic people who live without a care.Try to sit with me around my table,but never bring a chair.
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Mar 18, 2012 21:02:14 GMT
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If you go into it with the attitude that just cos someone owns a brand of car he`ll be a timewaster with no money you wont get far. Oh yeah definitely. Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as that being my attitude to it. I'd be very open to any work anyone wanted me to do, I've got no problem working on whatever type of car, and luckily, there's no type of car that I particularly dislike, I'm just as happy drooling over a 4x4, a single seater or a low-rider. I've got my personal tastes, but I like them all. I was more meaning that there's no point in me setting up a company and targeting a market that doesn't want to buy my products for a price that's profitable for me. I'd never turn away work, but when I look to make a small run of products rather than a one off for a specific customer, then I'll be looking for a market where I know there's the demand for the product at a price that makes it viable. With custom stuff I'd be more than happy to do whatever for whoever, in fact I'm much rather work on varied and interesting stuff than the same model of car all the time. I'd never assume someones level of seriousness based on the type of car they have, because I know there's often no correlation there. I'd quote them what it would cost to do the job, and if they could pay it, I'd do it. |
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Last Edit: Mar 18, 2012 21:04:10 GMT by RobinJI
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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Mar 18, 2012 21:59:41 GMT
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This is a Discussion not a dig at anyone and il still bet that your the only one that actually wants a sump doing out of all the enquiries on here and the other forums .
The whole point I was making that most people , myself included will search out the best value for money option before paying the real rate for stuff .
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hamps
Posted a lot
www.medwayrscentre.co.uk
Posts: 2,077
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Mar 18, 2012 22:09:30 GMT
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If it is anything to do with the motor trade DON'T DO IT. A few years back I would of told anyone "if you don't try it you won't know so go for it" but now??? Sorry but I have been on my own 15 years now, and have changed direction slightly a few times to make ends meet, it's a tough time out there, and you need a damn lot of cash behind you to contemplate doing it, not to say what you do is not worth doing, just from experience the stress, the sleepless nights, the problems it brings to the rest of your life is a real killer and really not worth it, sorry I couldn't be more positive mate and if you do go for it good luck |
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Mar 18, 2012 22:27:47 GMT
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alright robin, what you are thinking about is exactly what I'm looking to do but in the future, ive been contracting for 2 years now through my own limited company which pays enough for me to mess with the cars and pay the mortgage. Ive been working for 10 years now in automotive defense and aerospace and like you i cant stand the Bullplop and have no aspirations to become a meeting manager.
I'm actually helping a mate out who has set up his own fabrication business doing stuff for minis, mx5s and lambrettas, I'm designing the parts and hes making and selling them and i get to keep the design and get my own parts made for cost price
My mate pat has also recently set up his own motorsport company and is struggling for work that pays well and is even contemplating getting a real job
My accountant ( get a good one they are worth there wreight in gold!! ) told me a couple of weeks ago when we had a meeting to discuss my year of trading about where i wanted to go, i said about prepping and building trackday cars and sponsoring myself to do something like the mx5 championship. We went through what i was paying myself and how that would relate to running a garage to earn the same amount doing mots and servicing, basic stuff really, but looking at the figures and how many vehicles you have to put through a week gave me a shock and that wasnt to make a lot of money!
His best advice was to keep consulting as i am doing and try and build up profits in the business as well as doing work in the motorsport community and possibly sponsoring people, and then in a couple of years find a business to buy up or into, that way i have the building, tools and infrastructure. This is the long term idea.
My main peice of advice is yes start up your own company and build up a base of parts and customers, but at the same time have a job that pays for you to do that as well as all your day to day living costs, , if you need any advice on setting up the ltd company (which is easy) and the accounting stuff (not so easy at first) then give us a shout!
Good luck mate
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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Mar 18, 2012 22:43:22 GMT
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If I'm reading that right then making bits and pieces is more profitable than a normal garage ?
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Mar 18, 2012 22:57:41 GMT
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This is a Discussion not a dig at anyone and il still bet that your the only one that actually wants a sump doing out of all the enquiries on here and the other forums . The whole point I was making that most people , myself included will search out the best value for money option before paying the real rate for stuff . I am probably going to want one at some stage, but I have yet to get the engine or maybe even car to fit it to! but your right about the timewasters. |
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It's really nice to get someones experience of a similar situation. Thank you. Trust me, clients won't be touching my tools, and I'd be weary of letting them hang around too much. Also don't worry, I'm far from racist, and I'm happy to work for whoever will give me the money, where they're from or what they look like really doesn't phase me.
