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Jul 25, 2006 19:29:05 GMT
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OK, I think we're all bored of the finger pointing, debating the rights and wrongs etc and the like.
Howabout a topic which is just about constructive ideas about the relationship between banger racers and classic car owners?
Lets face it banger racers are far cheaper to buy bits off than most scrappies or autojumbles...
Some of them like to pass on cars which are "too good to race"
They seem to be able to find interesting cars cheap
You can't save 'em all - and some are just too far gone to save
I have found classic folks are a lot better at complaining about cars being bangered or scrapped than they are at saving them. Some of the effort I've had to go to to rehome nice savable classics in the past, just needing a little TLC. Sometimes you can't give them away.
Anyways...
Issues are:
* identifying and dealing with the minority of stolen vehicles that get raced
* moving on our part stripped parts cars so they can be raced
* getting parts taken off cars destined for racing sold on and reused
* getting the "too good to race" cars saved
* remembering that banger racing is (like it or not) part of our motoring heritage in this country
* any other business!
I think theres almost a need for some "neutral space" as things get a bit heated all too easily otherwise?
What about joint resources or classic friendly banger sites/resources?
I've got only questions at this stage.
Any starters?
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jul 25, 2006 19:54:13 GMT
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Do we have any active banger racers on the site?
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street
Posted a lot
6.2 ft/lbs of talk
Posts: 4,662
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Jul 25, 2006 19:56:49 GMT
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Good thread Alistair! I'd be happy to move on a retro car to banger racers if I was going to scrap it. Its a bit more satisfying to see it going round a track in anger than seeing it crushed into a cube for someone elses profit. Wish i'd have thought of that before weighing in the Rover P6 a while back  |
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,917
Club RR Member Number: 71
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Jul 25, 2006 21:47:25 GMT
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Excellent thread.......
Perfect points well made too
I'm not a banger racer but it's about time a few things were raised that didn't involve pointing fingers and name calling - All the guys I know that banger race are nice people that have a hobby that gives them an enormous amount of fun in a petrol head orientated way
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Jul 25, 2006 22:58:47 GMT
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I'll happily sell anything to anyone, be they banger lad, exporter or resto nut. If they pay the dollar, then that is cool. But from what I see there is f*ck all being done on their 'side of the fence' aside from bleating that we should not tar them all with the same brush. Until we see some POSITIVE contribution (i.e the thieves being positively ostracised / banged up) why the hell should we bother? It seems to me that we will never get past the apathy that the 'honest' banger racer has towards those smashing up stolen gear, whatever the quality.  |
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While i agree that alistairks post is both relevant and sensible, I think we really need to address some issues that are still outstanding before it can be taken forwards.
We know a solution of sorts has been mooted already which has seen a lukewarm to hostile response, primarily because it would penalise the "honest" banger racers.
I don't know the percentages but, probably,a majority of classic bangers have no ID whatsoever making the distinction between stolen and legit impossible. Unless the Banger fraternity are prepared to put themselves out and agree to a decision, all be it not foolproof, to ensure that ALL cars that race have a logbook and vin present then we are all curse word in the wind.
This is fundamental to any moves to get away from the mud slinging that has been going on.
We seem to be offering the olive branch and suggesting ways of co operating without seeing anything in return whatsoever.
Its almost like the victim of school bullying deciding to hand over his school dinner money rather than get his head caved in on a weekly basis.
I have never suggested that all Banger enthusiasts are bent but I have questioned their desire to erradicate an element that has brought their sport into disrepute.
The retro/classic enthusiast has spent an awful lot of keyboard time suggesting ways to, at least, make it more difficult to get a stolen car onto the oval and, in return, we have had nothing positive whatsoever coming back, only "it wont work".
All we ask is that they try such a scheme out. To enforce it will cost nothing, however the reticence in appying it boils down to the fact that buying something that has lain dormant for 30 years and no longer exists on the DVLC database would no longer be an option. In reality, long term, it would cost the banger racers more money, reduce the "options" in terms of available cars and would see a reduction in classic tin hitting the circuit.
For these primary reasons there will be great resistence to change, yet, if they are not prepared to bite the bullet and at least try it, how can they truly say they are doing all they can to stem the problem?
Sorry to be so negative but, TBH, we have a mountain to climb on this one.
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If Typhoo put the Tea in Britain who put the c**t in Scunthorpe?
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This is a very worthy thread.. Hopefully we can get some positive contributions.
Anything abusive will get moderated so be warned.
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I don't see where the problem is on availability of tin. Although it makes me twitch to think of a certain classic meet I was told of a couple of years back where no less than 71 (yes, seventy one) A60 Farinas got raced the point is I know plenty of people who have had difficulty getting shot of junk cars and mostly ended up calling the scrap man to shift them. Chap I know recently had an FB Victor spares car, that eneded up on the oval because the bangers would pay £50 and the weighing in price was like £35. Everybody wins. Now normally I know this guy weighs his donors and parts cars in, but the more complete stuff he's now sending to be raced.
A chap I know off another forum is also a banger racer and he says his local track does check VIN (and IIRC V5?) present before racing. Not too hard to get around if you're bent but its a start.
Just saying "its too hard" really isn't an excuse not to do something about it.
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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Just saying "its too hard" really isn't an excuse not to do something about it. True In many ways it's going to be about peer pressure. Years ago most people were OK with drink driving and the idea that you could get people to stop was rediculous. Years of advertising helped but mostly it was peer pressure that stopped the majority. While insisting that all cars racing must have a V5 and vin tags will certianly not stop all stolen cars being raced it would send an important signal "Banger racing does not tolerate stolen cars". If any stolen cars are caught and stopped this would reinforce this. The sport does need to police itself. Only the banger boys themselves can do this and this scheme would seem a good first step. Even stopping cars that are just "suspicious" would be good. I'm guessing that if someone raises a querey about a car at the moment most circuits response would be just "meh". The rersponse to suspicious cars should be "not tonight mate" bring her back with some ID. Banger racers want to race and this would incentivise them without the threat of impounding carrs that may actually be legal. |
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Jul 26, 2006 10:44:01 GMT
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It's nice to see a thread where both sides of the 'arguement' can put their point across. Here's mine from a banger points of view.
* identifying and dealing with the minority of stolen vehicles that get raced
99.9% of drivers would be happy to co-operate with some sort of system to stop stolen cars getting race, as long as it's not too much hassle. If you're requesting V5's etc be produced when cars are raced then there would be an issue, but some sort of weekly newsletter that we could circulate around the banger world would be a good start.
* moving on our part stripped parts cars so they can be raced
This already happens in a lot of situations, but the more you give to the banger community, the more we're likely to give back in return in the form of cars parts etc.
* getting parts taken off cars destined for racing sold on and reused
Again, most drivers will be happy to give or sell parts from cars they're stripping. I used to help somebody who was racing Granadas regularly, and practically running a spares shop at the same time, selling to both classic car bods and racers, and in return we did get quite a few shells off of classic car people, some for free!
* getting the "too good to race" cars saved
If the price is right you'll probably get the car, but bare in mind if a driver has his mind set on racing a certain car, you probably won't stand a lot of chance of getting it off of him!
Just my thoughts.
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Jul 26, 2006 11:29:49 GMT
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Do we have any active banger racers on the site? Yes we do as one is posting this answer Great thread wouldnt mind if retro car fans would go together in harmoney (sp) as i am getting fed up of reading about retro car fans having a go at us banger lot.If you want proof that we like our classics look at this gallery www.tim-catley.co.uk/TheStar01/Gallery.html as all the cars are from banger fans.Most of us have classics (do you count cavaliers as classics?).And for once we might be able to have no more slagging matches on our or your forums as most of us are bored of them. thats it from me |
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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Jul 26, 2006 13:06:05 GMT
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99.9% of drivers would be happy to co-operate with some sort of system to stop stolen cars getting race, as long as it's not too much hassle. If you're requesting V5's etc be produced when cars are raced then there would be an issue, but i would say that sort of check would be a bare minimum. Lets face it it's hardly major paperwork is it. Sure it's a small inconvenience but in effect what your post is saying is that 99.9% of banger racers would love to help but not as long as they have to do anything. Thant can't be right...can it? |
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This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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Jul 26, 2006 13:31:10 GMT
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I'm not saying that at all, but do you think every car we buy comes with all the paperwork?
If an A60's been sitting in the corner of a field for the past 15 years, we find it, offer 20 quid, buy it, no questions asked, there is no paperwork to prove who owns the car. It gets raced, weighed in, and nobody's the wiser.
Most cars are bought cash in hand no questions asked, so checking V5's would be virtually impossible.
Some sort of monthly newsletter would be a good place to start. I'm sure promotions would co-operate, and they could be circulated to most drivers with lists of stolen cars, which whilst might not have a massive effect, it's a start, and would certainly solve some problems. Certainly in the most recent case of the Plymouth Estate, if the driver had been aware of one being stolen in his area, I very much doubt he would have purchased it.
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Jul 26, 2006 13:44:54 GMT
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If an A60's been sitting in the corner of a field for the past 15 years, we find it, offer 20 quid, buy it, no questions asked, there is no paperwork to prove who owns the car. It gets raced, weighed in, and nobody's the wiser. Most cars are bought cash in hand no questions asked, so checking V5's would be virtually impossible. THEN START ASKING QUESTIONS!!!! Pretty simple huh. In the case of the A60 that's been in a field for 15 years, how hard is it to have a simple contract or bill of sale. If it turns out to be hookey, then you can SHOW that you bought it in good faith. A contract or bill in lieu of a V5 is acceptable enough. If it turns out to be a fabrication on the part of the banger buyer, then simple - BANNED. FOREVER. |
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Jul 26, 2006 13:45:39 GMT
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This "paperwork" issue seems to be the biggest problem for banger racers, and I bet it's a problem for other enthusiasts too when it comes to buying breakers etc. Personally out of all the cars I've owned (probably around 20) I have never bought a car without a V5. Why's that you may ask.... 'cos without it, you've got curse word-all proof that the car is legit. Even the V5 doesn't prove the car's not stolen. Although a compulsory V5 check would be a nuisance, and would stop quite a few legit cars from being bangered, it's a good start. Logbooks aren't that expensive in the scheme of things so as long as a car's on the computer records a V5 should be obtainable. Given the amount of cash some people spend on classics for racing, even obtaining a proof of ID certificate and re-registering the car wouldn't be too expensive for some! The main issue I can see with a newsletter is that I have my doubts as to whether the honest racers would "grass" on those known to be using stolen cars - I've spoken to a couple of racers this week, who admit they probably would turn a blind eye due to fear of getting a kicking. We know there are more honest racers than "bad guys", surely if everyone sticks together this is a problem we should be able to beat. Edit: Wow, this is just a long-copy version of what the Pogmeister said. Could have saved a load of typing. |
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My fleet:
Suzuki GSX-R600Y SRAD with bald, melted tyres
A borrowed Mondeo
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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Jul 26, 2006 14:33:10 GMT
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I'm not saying that at all, but do you think every car we buy comes with all the paperwork? If an A60's been sitting in the corner of a field for the past 15 years, we find it, offer 20 quid, buy it, no questions asked, there is no paperwork to prove who owns the car. It gets raced, weighed in, and nobody's the wiser. Most cars are bought cash in hand no questions asked, so checking V5's would be virtually impossible. Some sort of monthly newsletter would be a good place to start. I'm sure promotions would co-operate, and they could be circulated to most drivers with lists of stolen cars, which whilst might not have a massive effect, it's a start, and would certainly solve some problems. Certainly in the most recent case of the Plymouth Estate, if the driver had been aware of one being stolen in his area, I very much doubt he would have purchased it. Certainly even if you do buy that 15 year old A60 you can always get a V5 from the DVLA as the new owner. OK so it's not total proof but it's a start and it shows a responsible attitude. If the guy who bough the Plymouth had had to dso this then the real owner would have got the notification from the DVLA that someone was attempting to reregister the car - problem solved...expect that the banger buyer would then be out of pocket. Could it be that this may be the real problem, banger drivers worried that they will be shelling out £100's of pounds for cars that are then sent back to the real owner. Imagine walking out in the morning to find your daily drive Mundeo or similar missing. A month later you discover that the local ford dealership was offered it at a knock down prioce and snapped it up, then sold it on. Couldn't happen as the seller would need to present documents and the dealership would check the car. OK so you can't hpi or police check cars at circuits but you CAN check basic ownership docs. This is the basics surely |
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This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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Jul 26, 2006 14:46:29 GMT
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I think a step forward would be a bit of forum-twinning, where for instance we could be twinned with a banger forum. A joint 'stolen cars' would be an obvious idea, but joint for sale sections would be a good idea too, being as we all want similar stuff!
It's not for me to say, but maybe a banger racers area on here would work? It might lead to a bit of understanding on both sides.
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Jul 26, 2006 15:07:58 GMT
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I'm not saying that at all, but do you think every car we buy comes with all the paperwork? If an A60's been sitting in the corner of a field for the past 15 years, we find it, offer 20 quid, buy it, no questions asked, there is no paperwork to prove who owns the car. It gets raced, weighed in, and nobody's the wiser. Most cars are bought cash in hand no questions asked, so checking V5's would be virtually impossible This is EXACTLY the point that, i feel, the Banger racer cannot get his head around!! It is precisely because so many bangered classics come with no paperwork that detecting stolen ones is virtually impossible. The point that has been made over and over again is that a clear decision HAS to be made by the Banger community in regards to what direction they want to take all of this. We have been saying that all cars raced would have to have V5s and Vins, the bangers are saying "impossible" but its not is it!! As for the example of the A60 sitting in a field, well, you know the answer to that one, you don't bloody race it!!! This is all about cost. The A60 without a V5 or vin would cost you twenty quid, with one, maybe, a hundred. No longer would a banger racer pick up virtual freebies and that is why there is so much hostility to any such scheme. Has anybody considered that it would also be detrimental to us Retro/ Classic enthusiasts too? Every bit of classic tin available out there would suddenly go up in value once the bangers start competing for it. We have a scheme that could limit classic thefts, it could make finding classics to race with documentation more difficult and more costly. That is a clear and simple choice. The argument that most bangered classics have no documentation is no longer an argument against the idea, just an obstacle, an obstacle that is so easy to remove if people want to. |
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If Typhoo put the Tea in Britain who put the c**t in Scunthorpe?
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Jul 26, 2006 15:54:42 GMT
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Just thought i would add my view being a classic car / custom car, and huge banger racing fan! Normally watch racing on a sat night and go to a show on the sunday (mk1 sport in readers rides) banger racing has always been my number one hobby and alway will be until the day it stops, this buisness about showing v5's at races is not the answer (specially for old classics) as most will have been laid up somewhere for some years in a barn garden etc.. so many don't have the v5, So you are saying that it shouldnt be raced? should it stay there rotting more or what? or should whoevers barn / garden it is who wants rid of the thing weigh it in?? waste if you ask me. how many classic on ebay being sold with no v5? same thing really and they are all classic car fans bidding on them. as has been said a newsletter would be a good idea with details of classics going missing. any other suggestions? Also I love seeing classics banger raced and going out in style, when you see how bad the shells are in some of them by that i mean SHELL no running gear or nowt, and how much work goes into getting the track ready and looking pretty good, its like a restoration getting them to the track. plus many parts help us out for our roadworthy ones. love seeing mk1 escorts raced too makes mine that little bit rarer  |
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Jul 26, 2006 16:32:36 GMT
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I'm just totally gobsmacked that this discussion is going over peoples heads.
Mr MK1Escortmad:Yes i AM SAYING THAT IT SHOULDNT BE RACED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now do you understand?
Yes It could be a waste of a car, yes it could mean no more freebies and cheapies!!!!!
Not one single solitary suggestion to this problem has come from a Banger, not one. All talk about having a register is utter wibblepoo, how will that work? How would you keep your eyes open for a stolen car that you couldnt identify because it had no vin or V5?
So classics with no documentation are being sold on EBay, what does that prove? The restorer will apply for a V5 the banger racer wont. Scenario: Who would be the first to find out that that classic off of EBay was bent?
Sorry but I do not see how this thread or any other one will move this forwards at all. Sure we will have cars available for the banger racer, they will have parts, the relationship could be very cordial BUT it wont stop cars getting stolen will it!
Let me say this for the final time.
If the classic that the Banger driver is interested in doesnt have documentation of any sort don't RACE IT!! Whether the car is free, beyond salvation, just a shell whatever the state don't RACE IT.
Get used to the idea that everything you will buy, get offered or find to take onto the oval will have a Vin and a V5.
Two cars recently stolen and bangered would have been very difficult to virtually impossible to clone. The appetite of the banger to find ever more rare and unusual tin to race means that fewer of these cars could be stolen without its documents IF the suggested course of action be followed.
It doesnt matter a toss whether, because the banger wouldnt be able to use it, a car would have to be weighed in, left to rot etc, etc. That is not an issue, the issue is that nobody has come up with a better and more workable suggestion.This suggestion would, undoubtedly, make it more difficult to steal to race and it might even restore a bit of confidence on both sides.
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If Typhoo put the Tea in Britain who put the c**t in Scunthorpe?
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