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Jul 27, 2011 21:40:51 GMT
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Not a question this, just a thread on something that had me scratching my head and got me wondering if anyone else had come across it before.
My van has had a slight misfire which was most noticeable when changing up through the gears. I had always just put it down to the carburettor not being set up right, the throttle pump or something like that.
It had not run in a while but it went in for its mot on Monday and was bunny hopping intermittently the way there and back. At the time I thought I was low on fuel (the sender doesn't work, so I have to reckon how much is actually in there based on when I last filled it.)
Got it back home and it refuses to start or even fire at all. There was fuel in the filter. Cracked off the nut on the fuel line slightly and petrol is definitely getting to the carb. Looks like there is fuel in the float bowl. (It's got a little glass window in the side).
Took a plug out and no spark. Tested the coil and found 12V both sides of the coil so the points are not closing I thought. Took the dizzy cap off and probed the points with the ignition off and they are closing correctly. They're a bit pitted but the gap was about right so I cleaned them up with a bit of emery paper and a wipe over with meths, but still no sparks. Checked the connection between the terminal on the side of the body and the moving point and it's intermittent.
Turns out the wire between the two is broken inside the sleeve such that when the vacuum advance moves the base plate round it kills the ignition. I replaced the wire by soldering in some extra flexible stuff I happened to have and it's running smoother than it ever did. Hopefully this might improve the fuel economy a bit.
(I do have a complete Ford EDIS set up which I intend to replace the points with one day, but I am still working out what sort controller to use.)
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Last Edit: Jul 30, 2011 23:46:16 GMT by Clamity
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,514
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Jul 27, 2011 22:24:35 GMT
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Sounds like you worked that one out pretty well.  I had a dizzy with a loose base plate once (an early Lucas 45d that isn't very well designed) and the vac advance would pull the whole base plate about the place. That took a while to figure out too! |
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable. |
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Is that the wire connected to the condensor?
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Jul 28, 2011 18:48:56 GMT
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The earth strap to from the base plate to the dizzy body did that on mine as soon as the vaccum advance kicked in it ran like a dog. Took a little bit of head scratching. A friend of mine is currently developing ignition mapping software for cars with points ignition. At the moment it gives an ignition trace, caculates rpm and dwell angle. It is to be freeware and a beta version is currently available here. forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18428&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30bear in mind its still being developed so some features may not work yet and there may be some bugs to iron out. |
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44
1974 VW Beetle 1303s
1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV
1988 VW LT45 Beavertail
1998 Volvo V70 2.5
1959 Fordson Dexta
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Jul 28, 2011 21:36:14 GMT
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Heh, thanks Seth. Ate up the best part of the afternoon, so thought I might as well share.  David, almost. It's the little wire which sits inside the dizzy body which goes between the insulated tab and the moving point. The wires for the condenser and the coil both attach to the same tab on the outside. Bl1300, aha so I'm not the only one. The thread in that link looks pretty interesting. Sadly my points have only got the one adjustment so there's not much I could do with all the information that might give me. |
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Jul 28, 2011 21:50:12 GMT
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I remember some years ago I fixed a beetle cabrio that had already been to several specialists and had a carb rebuild, an exhaust system and a quote for a new engine... The problem was that the car would idle fine, but any revs made it cut out which made it utterly undriveable. I changed the screw holding the condenser to the live side of the points, it was so long it was touching the side of the dizzy as soon as any advance happened. The really criminal bit about this is the car had a fancy see-through distributor cap, so I could actually see the arcing as it happened  |
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in |
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I've always said if you think you've got a fueling problem it's prob an ignition problem.
And it's normally something easy and cheap.
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Remember the days when sex was safe and motorsport was dangerous. Vintage bling always attracts pussy. |
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Tim
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,340
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Jul 29, 2011 12:17:03 GMT
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The stop solenoid cable had broken internally on my 106 - car conked out and wouldnt start.
It was only when it was dark and the RAC man jumped it that he could see it arcing. I could never have seen it myself as i needed to be in the car and under the bonnet at the same time :-)
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Jul 30, 2011 23:43:06 GMT
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I've always said if you think you've got a fueling problem it's prob an ignition problem. Heard that said too. I do have a Ford EDIS setup ready to replace the points one day once I have sorted out some sort of controller for it. Not really wanting to spend out on a toothed wheel, how about this for an alternative...   I have drilled 35 shallow dints in a scrap pulley. The drill in the vice represents the front of the block and the drill bit is the end of the crankshaft. The sensor will go end-on like this.  Here's how I wired it up. Ford coil pack in the background, EDIS4 in the foreground and some nails in a bit of wood are pretending to be spark plugs. A jump pack provides the volts. I have reversed the blue and grey wires to the sensor as I have a missing hole rather than a missing tooth - excess metal as opposed to missing metal if you like. Just to prove it works in "limp-home" mode at least...  Now all I need is to sort out the advance/retard signal. I have a feeling a Megajolt is way smarter than what I need as the EDIS module pretty obviously has enough of a brain to work out the timing angles etc. |
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jul 31, 2011 23:07:39 GMT
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I have had similar issues with the Beetle. For me it was the rotor arm. Again, most people were bamboozled by what to do! After enough head scratching bypassing the resistor in the arm made it run lovely.
I know Rob's Dolly Sprint had issues with a new condenser he bought. It was short circuiting and generally made the car run awful.
IMO points are not too bad. Yes you can get more reliable (and potentially fit and forget about them) but it is the quality of ignition parts these days that have suffered.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,155
Club RR Member Number: 46
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(I do have a complete Ford EDIS set up which I intend to replace the points with one day, but I am still working out what sort controller to use.) Megajolt is simple to build and use. Don't know what it costs these days. It'll work off vacuum or throttle position sensor. (I've gone for the former as there's then no tps to wear out). It also has user-defined output switches so you can, for example have a light come on or buzzer sound if you go over 8000 revs Or switch the electric fan or .. you get the idea. I'd be interested to know if there are good alternatives out there. As for points being rubbish, its horses for courses really. EDIS & controller won't go out of adjustment and shouldn't fail but if it does, you'll be stranded and it's expensive to replace or have a spare. Points will need adjusting and replacing but a spare set will fit in your pocket and cost 4pence*. I've made myself paranoid now, perhaps I should refit my dizzy with points set correctly and ready and keep a old coil & leads in the boot as a failover/EMP plan B *might be more than 4pence, picked that figure to make the point(s) ;D |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sounds like you worked that one out pretty well. I had a dizzy with a loose base plate once (an early Lucas 45d that isn't very well designed) and the vac advance would pull the whole base plate about the place. That took a while to figure out too! i bloody hate those distributors, such rubbish compared to the american or german stuff I'm more familiar with. defiantely one of the parts lucas got their 'reputation' on!! thankfully now though theres a much better quality ducellier one thats a straight swap onto rootes engines. |
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Megajolt is simple to build and use. Don't know what it costs these days. It'll work off vacuum or throttle position sensor. (I've gone for the former as there's then no tps to wear out). It also has user-defined output switches so you can, for example have a light come on or buzzer sound if you go over 8000 revs Or switch the electric fan or .. you get the idea. I'd be interested to know if there are good alternatives out there. As for points being rubbish, its horses for courses really. EDIS & controller won't go out of adjustment and shouldn't fail but if it does, you'll be stranded and it's expensive to replace or have a spare. Points will need adjusting and replacing but a spare set will fit in your pocket and cost 4pence*. I've made myself paranoid now, perhaps I should refit my dizzy with points set correctly and ready and keep a old coil & leads in the boot as a failover/EMP plan B I think that would be the way to go if I did it: I'd leave the coil mounted and the distributor in a working state and keep the old plug leads in my toolbox. If the electronics ever packed up I could swap it back to points at the side of the road. Sadly my fix came unstuck at the weekend. Planned to take the van on a long trip but 30 miles from home it starts pinking a bit, so I came off the motorway to continue on the scenic route but it starts pinking on even the slightest incline. It was getting hot though not boiling over but in the end the oil pressure switch failed due to being made of hard cheese and nearly forty years old and neatly coated the underside of the van with a bit of free rust proofing, so it had to be recovered home. Thank gosh for AA monthly membership Have new points and oil switch on order (shares them with Isuzu Bellel/Florian apparently along with seemingly a large chunk of 60s Japanese automotive output) so will find out if the timing slipped or got stuck advanced, and if the lack of oil pressure has mullered anything (more than it already is) tomorrow. |
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I've always said if you think you've got a fueling problem it's prob an ignition problem. And it's normally something easy and cheap. I bought new injectors, fuel pump, ht leads, spark plugs, filter, etc for my ex's MGF when it wasn't running right. It was a £5 rotor arm. Although to give me my dues, I did change this first, but the new one was faulty! Everything can be checked with a multimeter! |
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A lot of "genuine" Lucas ignition parts are now made in India. Personally I had quite a few failures of these parts and recommend people look out for NOS British made Lucas items at autojumbles etc.
Paul H
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I had a dizzy with a loose base plate once (an early Lucas 45d that isn't very well designed) and the vac advance would pull the whole base plate about the place. That took a while to figure out too!
