RobinJI
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"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 24, 2011 19:14:13 GMT
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Hey guys, I've been helping a friend re-commission his dad's old rally car, and we've hit a bit of an issue. The car's a mk2 Astre GTE, but I'm not sure of the year or anything, as it's on a Q plate, apparently it's an ex-works car? It's running a rather lairy 2l 8v and all the other usual rally car extras. Despite it's high spec, it's just going to be used for fun and friendly club-level motorsport, so we're recommissioning it on as much of a budget as possible. The car's been sat with no gearbox or brakes for the last 19 years, and we sourced a 2nd hand F20 box and some uprated mk3 Astra GSI (or similar highish spec) brakes for it, however when it came to bolting the gearbox up, it turned out the old gearbox that was missing had an aftermarket gear-cluster, using a different output shaft, and the standard F20 wouldn't mate upto the paddle clutch, and therefore the fancy flywheel/pressureplate etc.. that goes with it. We've enquired about getting a paddle clutch to fit with the spline to go onto the F20 box, but it's a special order part, made to request, and is upwards of £200, so not really ideal right now. Now eventually the car will get back up to spec, but for the time being we just want to get it working, so we're looking for a standard flywheel to bolt on, but neither of us are particularly clued on about Vauxhalls, so this leads to why I'm posting: What other cars, which we're more likely to be able to find breaking, would the flywheel from fit the 2l 8v engine, and take a clutch that'll fit into an F20 box. A list of cars we can phone around breakers yards with would be awesome!Also, if anyone happens to have any of the bits we'll need, let me know, especially if you're in the South West! And because we all love pictures, a few of the beast in question:  (The big bolt in the middle is just holding the hub together due to a lack of drive shafts)     And the pile of wheels we've got to go with it. That's not even all of them, although I think the tyres may have gone off about 15 years ago! haha  |
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Last Edit: Jul 24, 2011 19:17:23 GMT by RobinJI
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Jul 24, 2011 20:06:10 GMT
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Standard type flat 2.0 8v flywheel and clutch should be perfect for the job as they used f20 gearboxes, so anything with a 2.0 8v engine will do the job. Should look like this:  If you one looks like that you'll just need a standard clutch and pressure plate off any 2.0 8v lump |
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1977 datsun 810 180b estate |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 24, 2011 20:20:27 GMT
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Cheers, the flywheel that's on there is no where near standard, it's been machined rather a lot, and uses a matched pressure plate that fits into pockets machined into the flywheels surface, so putting a stock clutch on there isn't an option without the flywheel as well.
Any ideas what cars used the 2l 8v with the right flywheel on it? Also would the flywheel be the same on the 1.8 or 1.6's at all?
PS, that's one massive picture!
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Last Edit: Jul 24, 2011 20:21:50 GMT by RobinJI
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Jul 24, 2011 22:57:04 GMT
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The F13/F16 use the 'smaller' flywheel and the F18/F20 use the 'larger' flywheel.
Steer clear of the <1.6 engines, everything else should be OK with the gearbox you want to use.
The 6 speed box (F28) with a 1.5 inch 'potted' flywheel, the V6's used an F25 box with a humongous 1.5 solid flywheel.
There are plenty of C20XE's being broken on Migweb/MK3OC, and a flywheel should cost 10 - 20 quid.
Incidentally, the F number stands for the amount of torque the gearbox could handle (x10).
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 24, 2011 23:59:19 GMT
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Ah, fair play, thanks for that, the car originally had an F16 casing with after market internals, although I can't recall what make, as it had an empty casing when we got our hands on it.
Would the flywheel from an XE fit? My friend was under the impression that the 8 and 16v's used a different bolt pattern onto the crank.
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Last Edit: Jul 25, 2011 0:00:12 GMT by RobinJI
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I think the flywheel determines the gearbox, I also think thick crank bolt pattern is identical on them all?
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What is the centre spline on the paddle clutch, if its 25mm diameter with 14 splines thats the same as he F28 box which is different to all the other vauxhall splines
So if it is maybe just get a f28 box rather than the f20 you have
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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I'm not sure but I can find out. I know it was large enough to slot over the F20 shaft and spin freely without the splines meshing at all, and it was a coarser spline than the F20. It'd be cool if that was the case, as it appears to be a very nice flywheel and clutch arrangement. Any ideas if the F28 would be a strait swap, and if it would be possible to get hold of one for less than the £200 for a new clutch to fit the F20?
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Jul 25, 2011 14:41:47 GMT
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It'll have the ID on the top of the box (next to the turret) - F20 or F28.  F28's are quite sort after, but I can't see one being used on a rally car, unless it was messed about with! |
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 25, 2011 14:47:39 GMT
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Yeah, I spotted the markings on the top of the box. When we first dug it out of the garrage the car was fitted with a F16, but only the casing was present, the full gear cluster and diff were missing as his dad had sold them back in '92 when the car was taken off the road. The cluster and diff that were in there, which he sold were far from standard.
We found an F20 box, and tried to fit it, only to find that the clutch wasn't compatible with the F20's input shaft. Hopefully it'll have used the input shaft dimensions from an F28 like Mantasport says, although even if it has, then I've got a feeling there wont be much in it cost wise between a new clutch made to fit the F20 (~£200), or getting an F28 box, and even if we could get one, I've got a feeling the gearing will be much much longer than we're after in a rally car.
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Last Edit: Jul 25, 2011 14:49:10 GMT by RobinJI
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Colonelk
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Posts: 3,740
Club RR Member Number: 83
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Jul 25, 2011 16:09:47 GMT
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XE and 8v bolt patterns are different.
You want one from either an 1.8 or 2.0 as the 1.6s are mostly small block not big block.
Mk3 cavalier and Mk3 astras are prime donors, can't remember which were pot type and which are not however (you really want a flat one if you can)
This reminds me, I need to check my pile to make sure I have one for the next 52 if you aren't already sorted
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Colonelk
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,740
Club RR Member Number: 83
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Jul 25, 2011 16:12:28 GMT
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IIRC F28 6th is the same as 5th in the F20 (depending on final drive ratio) however it is a more expensive and heavier box.
Also not sure which bolt pattern ecotec engines (none XE 16v) use (8v or XE)
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 25, 2011 16:15:21 GMT
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Cool, cheers Mark, if you had one it'd be awesome! It'll need an uprated friction plate if we go back to a standard flywheel set up (power's reckoned to be around 195bhp), but I still think that'll be cheaper than sorting the paddle clutch.
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jasonj
Part of things
Posts: 220
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Jul 25, 2011 16:15:29 GMT
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I think maybe the easiest method would be to buy a new clutch drive plate with the right spline to suit the F20 box. It sounds like its got a 7 1/4" or 5 1/2" clutch fitted. Can you post up a pic of the clutch? I may be able to help with the drive plate.
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Team Supercharged Opel Ascona 400.
294bhp - 235 lb/ft
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 25, 2011 16:28:15 GMT
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Jason, that was my original thought, however after getting a local rally specialist to enquire with Sachs, they'll make one, but it's a custom order part, and is around an 8 week turn-around time and a £200 bill  I don't have any pictures at the moment, but I can get them. Google's not throwing up anything similar. The pressure plate's a machined piece rather than pressed steel like a normal set up, and looks to be smaller diameter than the standard clutch. The flywheel's got pockets machined into it that the feet of the pressure plate fit tightly into. I'll have to get some decent shots of the rest of the car once it's out of the garage, it seems to be a pretty high spec piece of kit, it's just a shame we can't recommission it with the same budget it was originally built with! Working out what's standard, what's modified, and where modified bits have been sourced from has been a real headache with this car so far. His dad was always more of a driver than a mechanic, and with 19 years having passed since he last looked at it, he can't remember much of the spec. We've already had to revert back to stock wishbones, uprights and mk3 brakes because the uprights were pilbeam items with different drive splines, brake mounts and ball-joint mountings, and matching shafts, brakes and wishbones were looking to be a nightmare to source and pay for. |
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Last Edit: Jul 25, 2011 16:34:10 GMT by RobinJI
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 26, 2011 16:42:54 GMT
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Right, I've been told the clutch plate we have has 20 splines, so it's not F28 fitment. I'll try and get a picture later, but it depends if I head over to Taunton or not.
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jul 29, 2011 10:29:28 GMT
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The flywheel:  And the Clutch:  The clutch plates outside diameter is around 198. |
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Rob
Part of things
Posts: 252
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Jul 31, 2011 10:18:42 GMT
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that looks like a helix made paddle clutch, give them an email. as for what you can use, any 2.0 8v, 1.8 8v ohc flywheel and clutch will work with the f20. try to find one from either a 20seh or 18se engine, its the flat type, and weighs less.
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