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Jul 12, 2006 23:29:54 GMT
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dafandango in da house: the other reason is so people within the scene can recognise it as being a company which offers Hot Rod custom productsDon't get me wrong on this but to me that logo just says, a company who have jumped on the bandwagon of West Coast Choppers, Moon Eyes and others, trying hard do get associated with products & lifestyles of these "Gurus" in the Hot Rod, Kustom and Chopper scene at THIS moment, sorry but that's my gut feeling and I guess you are trying hard to sell and promote your parts and services and most likely doing a good job at it...... Hahaha! LOL! That's quite an assumption about a company based on just a picture of a logo....! I should have said that the logo I posted was one of 5 logos I carry for different purposes. My company offers over 120 exclusively designed and manufactured products for drag racing, aircooled VW custom parts, obsolete vintage Volkswagen replacement panels, reproduction vintage VW accessories, New old stock parts and panels and have a workshop offering custom fabrication and restoration of aircooled VW's. The company also has its own pro-class drag race car and offers related clothing and merchandise. That must be a big bandwagon I've jumped on then...
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Dig it up, slam it and drive it.
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Saru
Part of things
No Brand Loyalty
Posts: 460
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Wow. Great thread.
I asked because of explicitly not wanting to put an iron cross on my Mazda (being totally the wrong car for that iconic logo (ha! iconic logo! I *heart* tautologies)) but looking for something that said "post-ironic vintage Mazdas are cool" so I was thinking Rising Sun but that runs the risk here in Oz of offending a whole lot of people.
The search continues.
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1974 Saab 99 EMSI bought a new car. It's 35 years old. My friends said I was mad. We'll see.
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mercmad
Posted a lot
Flush Hard,it's a long way to McDonalds.
Posts: 1,740
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Heres goes.a rant from the mercmad man ....Firstly I understand Ken Howard as he was hero of mine from the time I read an early issue of Roths Chopper mag back in the 60's( yes he published magazines...) and life has tought me that "von Dutch" was in all likelyhood suffering from depression,and most probably Bi polar disorder,Look at pictures from say,Rod and Custom mag in the late60's and then look at the pictures taken of him around 1980 and you can see the classic Rhuemy eyes and puffy complexion of the alchoholic. His intolerance for dckheds is normal behavaiour of those who confront personal demons constantly....how would you feel if woke everyday feeling that you were inadequate in some manner and had to "over compensate'" constantly and then have to tolerate those who wanted you to create something special ,while all the time feeling they were in someway,looking down at you?. That is what "Von Dutch" felt for most of his life,the mad behaviour was his way dealing with depression ,the drink helped bury those feelings until by the end of the 70's he was firmly in it's grip and any symptoms of depreesiion were manifesting themselves in the manner Robert Williams describes. Williams would have done better,in my opinion ,to have steered Ken in the direction of proper help,rather than deride the man with his own personal prejudices. As for Von Dutch logo ware,I am sick to my stomach when Dutch imigrants here wear it as a badge ..... The Maltese Cross ,in my younger days was seen as the next worst thing to a Swastika,hence a lot of old ( sadly gone) mates who were Hells Angels etc who wore the maltese cross as form of defiance .I had a Sneider cams key ring which was a maltese cross,An uncle,a decorated war hero and former Prisoner of war ,grabbed it one day,belted me across the face and threw it in the toilet....so there were some strongly held veiws in those days. "K" in the Klan? the klan name dates from before the american civil war....and Sam Barris' brother, George, came up with K for Kustom as a marketing gimic,Pure Hollywood.
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Many years ago I changed my driving style to cope with rising fuel prices; I have now reached the stage where I am contemplating keeping my eyes shut in order to lower wind resistance.
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dp
Posted a lot
DP Race Tech
Posts: 1,044
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dafandango in da house: That's quite an assumption about a company based on just a picture of a logo....!
It's just my gut feeling when it comes to all these logos with Iron Crosses that have surfaced in the car & bike scene of lately, Schneider Cams must have been one of the first companies using it way back in the 50's and it has been much more prevalent in companies doing biz in the Harley/Chopper scene (now we'r talking biz and not clubs), some years back Jesse James (who used to work at Dago Choppers in San Diego who used the SS logo for their biz) opened up shop and started to use the Iron Cross in the West Coast Chopper logo and since then it has all skyrocketed, open up Street Chopper, Rod & Custom, Hot VW and a bunch of other rags you'll see the cross allover and there are so many that with it in the logo, as you yourself puts it: I fully understand the meaning of the Iron Cross within the Hot Rod scene which is partially why I have used it.. the other reason is so people within the scene can recognise it as being a company which offers Hot Rod custom products. and why not, you will most likely get some looking at your parts & services because of that and then you have done it right I guess so I have no complaints with your logo as long as you are honest and say as you do.....
The Von Dutch shirts & hats seen on 113-kids (Swedish for kids who's dads have fat wallets) allover the place is strange as with the girl who had a Ramones t-shirt an not knoing what it was, sales of T-shirts and accessories with company logos have lately gone bonkers!!! I read in Wall Street Journal (yes I read it!!) some time ago that Harley Davidsson makes more monney on merchandising than selling motorcycles, FOX sells more T-shirts and stickers than they sell MX products and my own guessing is that West Coast Choppers & Orange County Choppers also do more cash on t-shirts and such than building Choppers. It's strange to know that Von Dutch has again surfaced all over the world with about 99% of the people wearing his name proudly not knowing what it is.....
I'm still on my high horse of: Dare to be different!!! If you want to do a logo or design do your own, put pen to paper, steal a logo you like and change it (oki so some like the Iron Cross and sure why not), do a stencil of something but what ever you do be creative!!!! The Crazy Octopuss IS creative and different. I still repeat my friend Mästarens favorite line: Only dead fish travels with the current......
DP says: This is a topic that can go on forever.........
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Last Edit: Jul 13, 2006 8:44:33 GMT by dp
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doesnt stuy have one on his sapp? what p1ssed me off a couple of years ago was the trend for "von dutch" t shirts from wanky designer shops. the foo's wearing them had no idea who he was. at least they looked trendy that week. to$$ers. I always level the argument of non surfing people wearing Billabong, Ripcurl etc. etc. without actually going surfing or being aware of what its all about. There are hundreds of things that have been co-opted into popular culture with little or no knowledge of what they actually mean .. fashion and culture just works like that.
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doesnt stuy have one on his sapp? what p1ssed me off a couple of years ago was the trend for "von dutch" t shirts from wanky designer shops. the foo's wearing them had no idea who he was. at least they looked trendy that week. to$$ers. I always level the argument of non surfing people wearing Billabong, Ripcurl etc. etc. without actually going surfing or being aware of what its all about. There are hundreds of things that have been co-opted into popular culture with little or no knowledge of what they actually mean .. fashion and culture just works like that. Che Guevara is audibly spinning in his grave and has been for a few years... *n
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Top grammar tips! Bought = purchased. Brought = relocated Lose = misplace/opposite of win. Loose = your mum
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phatphord
Part of things
Scorpilow
Posts: 674
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This really is an awesome thread. Top marks to everyone,particularly as it hasn't dissolved into slagging. Hotwire,as you say,popular culture will always soak up whatever is cool on the fringes and spit it out in a toned down soft and friendly version. You only have to walk down a high street and see how many obvious cross-boundary references people are wearing without realising. Thing is, lets not put ourselves on a pedestal because we know the roots of what we're interested in,after all there are certain trends that we follow/emulate. The interesting things happen when things are evolved. Going back 12/13years when i was riding my first bike on the road and had mates with interesting cars and bikes, i designed a small logo of a fish,which came to be know as the stoned fish due to its crossed eyes. This fish appeared sans writing in sticker form on our varied bikes and cars,and cos it was borne out of a close group of friends, some of us even got it tattoed on ourselves. Over time it disappeared,but not before it had been used by one friend in his custom made disc brakes for his DH rig,been on about 20bikes and at least the same amount of interesting cars. Some people got what it meant,and wanted a part of it,but because it wasn't loaded with iconic meaning as the iron cross/rising sun flag is, most people could bypass it. Thiing is it disappeared because we drifted apart. Yet when i was clearing a shed the other day and found a bike seat with it on,it still conveyed the same feelings, not just to me,but the other guys there,so its gonna come back. Let us not forget what the HA/Outlaw (no disrespect to either for grouping them together) 1%er badge carries with it,and the amount of symbolic power that it conveys. It is one thing to have understanding and sit something in context,and I don't think anyone here has any issues with that,it is another thing when the meaning is misconstrued or sat in a false context. Basically use what you want to use,but if you can do something fresh that has meaning that you imply,then all the better.
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1994 Ford Scorpio Lowrider um...and some bikes...
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dafandango in da house: That's quite an assumption about a company based on just a picture of a logo....!It's just my gut feeling when it comes to all these logos with Iron Crosses that have surfaced in the car & bike scene of lately, Schneider Cams must have been one of the first companies using it way back in the 50's and it has been much more prevalent in companies doing biz in the Harley/Chopper scene (now we'r talking biz and not clubs), some years back Jesse James (who used to work at Dago Choppers in San Diego who used the SS logo for their biz) opened up shop and started to use the Iron Cross in the West Coast Chopper logo and since then it has all skyrocketed, open up Street Chopper, Rod & Custom, Hot VW and a bunch of other rags you'll see the cross allover and there are so many that with it in the logo, as you yourself puts it: I fully understand the meaning of the Iron Cross within the Hot Rod scene which is partially why I have used it.. the other reason is so people within the scene can recognise it as being a company which offers Hot Rod custom products. and why not, you will most likely get some looking at your parts & services because of that and then you have done it right I guess so I have no complaints with your logo as long as you are honest and say as you do..... I know what you are saying, dude and, I appreciate it. I'm a professional designer by trade and it is no secret that to get an easily recognisable logo which is understood by your target market, its an easy option to use something which they will understand and percieve to belong to a certain market. With the popularity of the Iron Corss in today's culture it may well be one of the obvious symbols to use. However, I have another logo which uses the Hawaiian theme of Rodding i.e. Tikis, hibiscus, hula girls, etc. Like has been said before.. it does the job! The Von Dutch shirts & hats seen on 113-kids (Swedish for kids who's dads have fat wallets) allover the place is strange as with the girl who had a Ramones t-shirt an not knoing what it was, sales of T-shirts and accessories with company logos have lately gone bonkers!!! I read in Wall Street Journal (yes I read it!!) some time ago that Harley Davidsson makes more monney on merchandising than selling motorcycles, FOX sells more T-shirts and stickers than they sell MX products and my own guessing is that West Coast Choppers & Orange County Choppers also do more cash on t-shirts and such than building Choppers. It's strange to know that Von Dutch has again surfaced all over the world with about 99% of the people wearing his name proudly not knowing what it is..... Don't get me started on Von Dutch. I've got a few Von Dutch T-shirts and had to stop wearing them at one point. However you do make a good point here. Over in the UK there is a similar thing going on with Playboy. You can buy at supermarkets Playboy pencil cases, note pads, lunch boxes and even logo'd t-shirts for kids, etc and I've seen kids as young as 4years old wearing them. They have no idea of the real meaning of the Playboy logo, and I have to say that I'm surprised their parents let them wear it. It all demonstrates the power of branding...
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Dig it up, slam it and drive it.
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street
Posted a lot
6.2 ft/lbs of talk
Posts: 4,662
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Thats a fine example, the Playboy stuff. It really is unbelievable. In some ways i'm really glad the Iron cross/maltese cross is bieng over-used. Slowly but surely the nazi connotations are bieng diluted and something that was once such a negative symbol is bieng turned into something positive, which can't be a bad thing. I think the more exposure the iron/maltese cross gets in the car scene, the more people are going to realize that the world hasn't gone nazi crazy and its just a fashion fad at the moment, So the less offended people are going to get. The downside of the over-exposure is that the outlaw bikers' use of the symbol and its connotations will also be diluted and forgotten, which is a sad thing. Just my 2 euros worth
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jul 13, 2006 10:04:24 GMT
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Over in the UK there is a similar thing going on with Playboy. You can buy at supermarkets Playboy pencil cases, note pads, lunch boxes and even logo'd t-shirts for kids, etc and I've seen kids as young as 4years old wearing them. They have no idea of the real meaning of the Playboy logo, and I have to say that I'm surprised their parents let them wear it. I noticed this started happening in about 2004, before that it was PornStar clothing, Suddenly girls, everywhere, about 16/17 started wearing Playboy tops. Then it was Playboy purses and if they were on forums their sig/avatar almost always had the logo on it. Then a lot of shops cottoned onto it and you could get pretty much anything with a Playboy logo on. The odd thing is, and I was ranting about this a couple of years back, if you saw a guy walking down the street with a Playboy logo on his top you'd jump to the assumption that he's homosexual. Well if that isn't a perfect demonstration of how a logo can turn totally ironic I don't know what is! The Ramones top story is becoming a very frequent one. There is this massive 'emo' trend sweeping the country and it seems every other kid is now dressed in this sort of grungy/greebo fashion. The tops almost always feature a band but they are bought purely for the logo. I've seen Nirvana, Korn, Slipnot, Metallica and alsorts and have heard many a tale of people seeing a kid on one of these tops and saying something like "Hey you know Kurt Cobain shot himself you know?" and getting the reply "Who's Kirk Cobain?". A lot of cities now have shops selling 'emo' fashion accessories and they are just full of black tshirts with various old cult icons printed on them. Logos are emotional things and what they stand for may not have anything to do with their origination. People see a logo and they see a lifestyle, not everyone has the time or determination to research every logo they see and judge their own integrity to become associated with it. As mentioned logos aren't always about saying something they can also be a brand that represents a group, like Seths Crazy Fish. Often the orignation for something like that can be totally random and based purely on asthetics, there may be a deeper meaning but it's not considered. I think the Crazy Octopus has become a Retro Rides group logo, people want it in the hope one day someone else will spot it and say "Hey, crazy octopus, he's one of us!" When logos are taken up by a group it's like a local dialect, it's something exclusive to that group that diffrenciates them all as one. The big problem comes when someone emulates it for themselves because they think it looks cool and the loop is broken. Take the recent popularity in Nerburgring stickers since the promotion of the circuit on things like Top Gear for example. That has gone from something exclusive to visitors to something exclusive to general car fans.
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,517
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Jul 13, 2006 10:27:32 GMT
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As mentioned logos aren't always about saying something they can also be a brand that represents a group, like Seths Crazy Fish. Hey, not mine! That was phatphord
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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dp
Posted a lot
DP Race Tech
Posts: 1,044
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Jul 13, 2006 10:42:31 GMT
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dafandango in da house: Over in the UK there is a similar thing going on with Playboy... I've seen kids as young as 4years old wearing them. They have no idea of the real meaning of the Playboy logo, and I have to say that I'm surprised their parents let them wear it.
I had the same feeling when my "friend" over at Skin Industries lanuched the "Little Skin" line of clothing, for men Skin is a company owned by a former porn exectuvie doing some questionable designs on T-shirts & such, not to speak of their catalog and the "Skin Babe.com" website, huuuu. Skin started of as a line of MX clothing an decal kits for MX bikes but as the T-shirt sales just took off it now has a focus on that and not as much as an MX company and sometimes looking at much of the newcomers to the Hot Rod & Chopper biz going that way since it must be easier to produce and sell t-shirts with cool stuff on than hiring creative people and build cool Whips & Choppers....
There's a similar trend with The Jolly Roger (skulls) over here in Sweden, right now you can get it on almost everything from dish towels to dog leaches and I have to admit to beeing a fan of skulls, on my flagpole there's a Aprilia Racing flag and under a small Jolly Roger, my dog has a wide greyhound type collar with skulls on and in my mind Vovven is proud of wearing it so I guees I also have to admit to going with the trends althoug I have had skulls on rings and other stuff for as long as I can remeber....
DP says: I guess we all have our favorite symbols and such......
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tigran
Club Retro Rides Member
In rust we trust. Amen.
Posts: 6,444
Club RR Member Number: 142
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Jul 13, 2006 11:29:17 GMT
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Gah - absolutely fascinating reading people!
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1964 Rover P5 i6 1987 BMW 525e - The Rusty Streak 1992 Micra K10 2001 BMW E46 316i 2002 BMW E46 330Ci 2013 BMW F31 320d 2018 BMW G31 530d
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Jul 13, 2006 11:44:01 GMT
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This thread is excellent. Really informative and engrossing.
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Jul 13, 2006 11:47:15 GMT
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Superb thread guys, educational AND socially discursive. 10/10!!!
Larry, didn't know you'd taken a photo of my flip front, god I need to wash the race car lol
This is verging into very dodgy territory for me as a recovering forum ranter but I really fancy contributing to this one ...
Those of you who have seen me will know I have some very visible and fairly large tattoos and many moons ago, a friend and I got into a "discussion" about why I had covered my arms when I was a bridesmaid for my best friend two years ago because "if I was confortable with how I looked and truly didn't care what other people thought then I shouldn't have felt the need to cover them up"
This may seem like a tangent but bear with me ...
My reponse was that I am totally comfortable with my tattoes and I don't care about how people see them ... BUT ... to me, freedom of expression comes with responsibility.
In this case (as at work) I covered my arms because I respected the fact that my best friend was the star of the show that day, not me. If I had left my arms uncovered (which she and her mother wanted me to do as it goes) then when I stood up at the front of the church with her, people would have stared and I didn't want anyone staring at anything other than her and her fella. Simple as that, and I uncovered my arms at the reception.
My point being (albeit very convoluted) is that if you want to scream that it is your "right" to express yourself you have to accept that you have a responsibility to do so in an appropriate way. I'm not talking about being scared of repercussions, I'm talking about the fact that people don't just torch cars with paint jobs they don't like for the h3ll of it and that being sensitive to the fact that they feel just as strongly as you do, and for valid reasons, goes hand in hand with your rights.
Same way I have every right to smoke, but I consider it my responsibility not to smoke around vulnerable people, kids especially.
At a tangent from how this thread has developed I suppose, I'm not really too fussed about overuse of logos because if something looks "right" it'll still look right when all the johnny-come-lately's have moved onto the next fad. Plus, as you can see, Larry's logo is plastered over my flip front so it would be a little hypocritical of me to talk about the overuse of the cross.
Crosses look right in the context of hot rod styled cars and I think they have evolved into a completely different meaning to the original anti establishment sentiment - if the situation in this country changed however and the symbol became overtly offensive, I wouldn't want to see it used and I wouldn't expect anyone else to want to see it around the place either.
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Jul 13, 2006 11:54:07 GMT
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, holy curse word 'Tash, I've not seen you do one of them since VZi..
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The lurker formerly known as Cappuccinocruiser.. or wedgedout..
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Jul 13, 2006 11:56:52 GMT
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It wasn't that bad was it?
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Last Edit: Jul 13, 2006 11:57:19 GMT by Peaches
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Jul 13, 2006 12:03:00 GMT
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It wasn't that bad was it? It was lovely
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Jul 13, 2006 12:06:14 GMT
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I'm not really too fussed about overuse of logos because if something looks "right" it'll still look right when all the johnny-come-lately's have moved onto the next fad. Plus, as you can see, Larry's logo is plastered over my flip front so it would be a little hypocritical of me to talk about the overuse of the cross. Crosses look right in the context of hot rod styled cars and I think they have evolved into a completely different meaning to the original anti establishment sentiment - if the situation in this country changed however and the symbol became overtly offensive, I wouldn't want to see it used and I wouldn't expect anyone else to want to see it around the place either. You gotta admit though.. the 'cross logo certainly doesn't look an inch out of place on your car.. it adds to the 'hard as nails' look your car oozes from every angle! My drag car will be running a different variation of the logo - makes things more interesting!
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Dig it up, slam it and drive it.
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Jul 13, 2006 12:08:47 GMT
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I have the Iron Cross incorporated into my company logo. I fully understand the meaning of the Iron Cross within the Hot Rod scene which is partially why I have used it.. the other reason is so people within the scene can recognise it as being a company which offers Hot Rod custom products. However, there are some people who have taken the whole Iron Cross thing too far and started moving into Nazi terrirory.. Blitzkrieg Racing for one. Some of their T-shirts are verging a bit too close to the bone. Click me for T-shirt 1Click me for T-shirt 2Click Me for T-shirt 3Blitzkrieg RacingHoly curse word, those look like full on Neo Nazi Nightware... Wonder how far I would get in the South Side Of Glasgow with one of the largest Jewish populations in the UK... I would be lynched...
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