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Jun 12, 2011 20:47:17 GMT
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Car: 1985 VW Polo, 1043cc, carburettor engine. No electronic or engine modifications have been made.
Fault: Engine will attempt to start but not turn over.
Following a break down today on the way to a show, we've been scratching our heads of what to check to resolve the issue. Unfortunately we couldn't start the car at the roadside and I had to be towed home by a friend.
Pulled over into a layby to check directions. Car had been running fine all the way both at idle and at speed. Once the car was stopped in the layby my idle gradually got slower and slower until the car stalled. The car would then not restart.
When attempting to start the car, fuel is pumping normally, starter motor is doing it's job but, as we found out, no spark is appearing and the engine is unable to fire. After a few attempts sometimes a buzzing noise emits from the dashboard, even though to our knowledge (and according to the Haynes book of lies) no buzzer is fitted.
Recently the coil, rotor arm, distributor cap and fuel filter were replaced to cure, successfully, a cutting out issue I was having.
All lights and radio-casette unit still work as normal, the problem seems isolated to the ignition circuit.
Tomorrow I will be buying a battery charger to recharge my now nearly flat battery (was about a 20 mile tow home in heavy rain) before a fault diagnosis can be made.
I'm wondering if anyone has had experience of this sort of issue and what they might suggest as a solution.
Current ides on what the fault could be:
- an old electrical component we didn't replace when we replaced everything else has broken and now prevents the car from starting.
- the new coil has packed in.
- the nearly new HT and/or spark leads have broken (They're about 1000 miles and about 3-4 months old)
- a relay has blown or a wire is chafed causing a short/feedback loop which is also causing the odd buzzing noise.
I'm just starting to learn about car electronics and mechanicals, but I'm hoping with your help and the help of friends and family who are more knowledgable than I we can resolve this issue and I can get back to driving again.
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Last Edit: Jun 18, 2011 20:38:49 GMT by Deleted
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jun 12, 2011 21:04:05 GMT
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Check out the ignition module. It's a little block in the scuttle that the wiring from the dizzy will lead to. They're shared with pretty much all the carbed, electronic ignition VW's so if you can try temporarily swapping it from a mates car it'll save you the expense of buying one. It'll look like this:  Edit, just noticed you've got a mechanical tappet engine in your polo, I'm not sure they used the same ignition system as the later cars, but it's worth a look anyway. |
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Last Edit: Jun 12, 2011 21:10:05 GMT by RobinJI
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Jun 12, 2011 21:18:52 GMT
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I'm not 100% to be honest, I know mine seems to come up on the motor factor systems as a change-over model and while most of it is the earlier Mk2 stuff, you can be sure something won't be. Thanks for the tip, it's another thing to add to the check list  |
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the buzzzing noise could be a flat battery. if you have 8 or 10 screws on the cam cover, its condenser and points ingnition. it could be them that have gone, or just something got wet in the ignition with all the rain.
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dungbug
Posted a lot
'Ooligan!
Posts: 2,852
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Jun 13, 2011 14:37:23 GMT
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If you have thr old rotor arm, condensor, dizzy cap etc it might be worth swapping them just to check that one of the 'new' components hasn't failed. I've had running issues with MK2 Polo's before which turned out to be air leaks from the fuel manifold, as you're not getting a spark it can't be that. Must be isolated to the ignition side somewhere.
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Past: 13 VW Beetles from 1967 - 1974
Bay Window Campers (1973 & 1974)
Mini's (1992 Cooper lookalike & 1984 '25 Anniversary)
MK2 Polo Coupe S (1984 & 1986)
MK2 Polo Breadvan (1981 & 1984)
MK4 Escort (1989)
MK2 Granada Based Hearse (seriously)
Fiat Uno 60S (1986) Punto 60S (1998) Cinq (1997)
1998 Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat
2003 Ford KA
Current: 2004 Ford Focus (barely alive)
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Jun 13, 2011 15:02:44 GMT
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You're not the first person to suggest trying the old components. But like a noob I threw them away because I didn't think there was any point keeping them after having put new things on, now I know better of course.
I should know the ignition system fairly intimately by the end of all this.
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Jun 13, 2011 21:33:27 GMT
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First check to see if you even have the ignition module. If you do its located under the plenum cover (in between the fusebox and the fan motor)
Has your engine got a 3 bolt rocker cover or 8? If its 8 it almost certainly doesnt have the ignition mod.
In which case you have a points and condensor engine.
In fact I'm pretty sure yours being an 85 will be an early solid lifter engine. The changeover was late 85 early 86 on a C plate
*are the points opening and closing?
*are you getting power to the coil with the ignition on?
*If your getting power at the coil, Does the coil have a way to ground?
*then check the simple things like turning it over and seeing if the kinglead will produce a spark I.e cutting out the rotor and dizzy .
Will also see by doing this , If the coil has a HT output.
.....
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Last Edit: Jun 13, 2011 21:34:19 GMT by retrowagen1234
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dungbug
Posted a lot
'Ooligan!
Posts: 2,852
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Jun 14, 2011 12:55:03 GMT
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You're not the first person to suggest trying the old components. But like a noob I threw them away because I didn't think there was any point keeping them after having put new things on, now I know better of course. Unfortunately life is a cruel teacher.  Resto make's some good suggestions though, I'd say it's ignition related. When I had hassle with the Bug it was usually points/condensor related, they're both similar in that way. |
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Past: 13 VW Beetles from 1967 - 1974
Bay Window Campers (1973 & 1974)
Mini's (1992 Cooper lookalike & 1984 '25 Anniversary)
MK2 Polo Coupe S (1984 & 1986)
MK2 Polo Breadvan (1981 & 1984)
MK4 Escort (1989)
MK2 Granada Based Hearse (seriously)
Fiat Uno 60S (1986) Punto 60S (1998) Cinq (1997)
1998 Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat
2003 Ford KA
Current: 2004 Ford Focus (barely alive)
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mrj
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,662
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Jun 14, 2011 13:31:25 GMT
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there is two things, i would check first:
- is the rotor turning when the starter is engaged ? If not, check cam belt ...
- check the electrical part of the ignition lock/barrel, this often causes a problem on older Volkswagens, especially when you have more than 20 keys on your keyring ;D You could start and move the ke up and down, if it starts then, yopu have to change the electrical part... i have a drawing, where to drill a hole, to get the lock out of the barrel ...
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- 1971 VW 1600 TL Fastback
- 1978 Passat GLS Variant
- 1980 Audi 100 5E
- 1981 VW aircooled panel van (sold)
- 1983 VW Jetta Mk.I
- 1984 VW Polo Coupé
- 1984 VW Passat hatchback
- 1987 VW Passat Variant
- 1987 VW Passat hatchback
- 1988 VW T25
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Jun 14, 2011 18:00:58 GMT
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Have you checked the spark plugs ? They could be sooted up or just knackerd. Or should I go to the corner and stfu ?  |
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1987 vw bread-van
1990 vw polo saloon
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Jun 14, 2011 20:24:15 GMT
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More very good advice guys, this is helping me to understand what can go wrong.
I am on points and condensor, the car is a February '85 model. I didn't think I was on points, but further inspection has revealed I am. A quick inspection yesterday with the help of an awesome neighbour revealed that my points aren't moving, so it seems likely now that the points are stuck. They look pretty knackered too so I've ordered some new ones and a new condensor. I know for a fact that the points haven't been replaced for at least 12 years and the points and condensor weren't replaced when I did the other stuff as we couldn't get the parts at the time.
So, plan of attack is to fit the fully charged battery, collect the parts tomorrow (providing they're in) and check through the system. If the points and condensor cure the problem then that's brilliant, it seems likely they will. If not I've got a wealth of info above to check through.
It's an eye-opener to me just how much stuff this fault could be.
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Jun 14, 2011 20:25:07 GMT
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Oh, and spark plugs should be okay. Like the leads, they're about 1000 miles and 3-4 months old so it's unlikely they're at fault. When I've got a tool to remove them with - I'm building up my own tool kit as I need stuff at the mo - I'll take a look just to make sure they're okay.
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dungbug
Posted a lot
'Ooligan!
Posts: 2,852
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Jun 15, 2011 13:42:53 GMT
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If the points aren't moving then they've closed up, reset the points gap & check again. The points should open via a lobe on the shaft, I can't see the hsft being worn to the point that it won't operate the points. As Jurgen (MRJ) said, check the rotor arm is still turning when you turn the engine over. Looks like progress though so well done chap, best way to learn is by doing.  |
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Past: 13 VW Beetles from 1967 - 1974
Bay Window Campers (1973 & 1974)
Mini's (1992 Cooper lookalike & 1984 '25 Anniversary)
MK2 Polo Coupe S (1984 & 1986)
MK2 Polo Breadvan (1981 & 1984)
MK4 Escort (1989)
MK2 Granada Based Hearse (seriously)
Fiat Uno 60S (1986) Punto 60S (1998) Cinq (1997)
1998 Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat
2003 Ford KA
Current: 2004 Ford Focus (barely alive)
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Jun 15, 2011 15:24:24 GMT
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Stupid questions perhaps but:
If I'm not getting electricity from the coil forwards, doesn't that mean the rotor arm won't spin because there's nothing to power that part of the circuit?
While I have got people to help me (without my bidding I might add, enthusiasts are awesome that way), if I didn't and had to do this on my own is there any way I can turn the key while I'm under the bonnet? At the moment it's a two person job as the key is too far away from the bits I need to look at and my arms just aren't that long.
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dungbug
Posted a lot
'Ooligan!
Posts: 2,852
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Jun 15, 2011 15:50:01 GMT
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The shaft that spins the rotor arm in connected to the cam shaft, if the engine is being turned over the cam shaft movement will turn the rotor arm and the points should open & close by the lobe on the shaft. Think of that side of is as a 'mechanical' thing, if the cam shaft is turning it will operate the rotor arm & open & close the points. If there's no electricity getting through then you'll get no spark (if that make's any sense).
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Past: 13 VW Beetles from 1967 - 1974
Bay Window Campers (1973 & 1974)
Mini's (1992 Cooper lookalike & 1984 '25 Anniversary)
MK2 Polo Coupe S (1984 & 1986)
MK2 Polo Breadvan (1981 & 1984)
MK4 Escort (1989)
MK2 Granada Based Hearse (seriously)
Fiat Uno 60S (1986) Punto 60S (1998) Cinq (1997)
1998 Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat
2003 Ford KA
Current: 2004 Ford Focus (barely alive)
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Jun 15, 2011 20:39:12 GMT
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Do you have a constant 12V at the coil (the small wire? ) with the ign on, if the cars runs but stalls i doubt the cam belt is susspect.
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R.I.P photobucket
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Stupid questions perhaps but: If I'm not getting electricity from the coil forwards, doesn't that mean the rotor arm won't spin because there's nothing to power that part of the circuit? While I have got people to help me (without my bidding I might add, enthusiasts are awesome that way), if I didn't and had to do this on my own is there any way I can turn the key while I'm under the bonnet? At the moment it's a two person job as the key is too far away from the bits I need to look at and my arms just aren't that long. *turn the ignition to the ON posision. *using a multimeter check that the coil has power going to it, You don't need to turn the engine over to do this. (put one lead of the multimeter to ground on the body and test the lt wires to the coil. You should have 12v+ *If that shows there is power, Then remove the central ht lead from the dizzy cap (the one coming from the coil) and place it so that the metal end of it is a couple of mm from a ground (rocker cover?) Then turn the engine over by hand with the ignition on, It wont start as the king lead is off, But if all is well itll spark when the points move. Turning it over is easy by putting a socket and bar on the crank pulley bolt. *if you have spark at that point, ( fat blue spark) And the rotor arm is properly pressed on to the dizzy shaft (little grove for the piece inside the rotor needs to line up and ive seen these break before) You should be getting spark at all the plugs. BUTThere is an ODD one with polos, Where the ignition switch gives up, And although there is power with the ignition ON , It hasnt got power when the engine is being turned over on the starter. One easy way to test that is. Turn it on, And get someone to push start ya. If it starts that way but not on the key then its pretty likely the ignition switch. |
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Jun 16, 2011 11:29:54 GMT
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Have you pulled the old points out to take a look? I don't know about Polos, but most stuff I've had has had them wear at a funny angle and close up/burn out if ignored. You should be able to file everything flat and reinstall. The Fiesta is terrible for it, so I've got one set filed back to flat in the glove box, and another fitted. They get rotated when I get misfires. I've got a proper points file as well, which is really useful. I've also just bought a later dizzy and coil to convert to electronic ignition because I get fed up of fiddling with points quite quickly, I'm sure someone like Retrowagen will be able to say if a similar conversion is doable on your Polo |
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...proper medallion man chest wig motoring. |
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Jun 16, 2011 20:03:34 GMT
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First of all, once again a big thank you to everyone offering advice on this problem. I *think* I've fixed it now. To start with I did the simple stuff like reconnecting the battery and using the multimeter to find out where the electrickery was going. Fine at coil, fine at HT lead. Removed the distributor cap and had a look inside where the points are.  Had to wonder what the blob of white stuff was, I've not seen the points in situ on this car before. Ah, they've melted.   Fitted the new points with the help of my (equally novice, but good with electrical stuff) housemate and after gapping them according to the Book of Lies, car fired up. At some point I'll go through the other things like my spark plugs, but not today, just to make sure everything looks healthy. I heartily approve of this new section of RR, has helped me massively with this. |
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Jun 16, 2011 20:26:26 GMT
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Excellent stuff Did you do the condensor at the same time? |
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...proper medallion man chest wig motoring. |
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