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Nearly put this in the Daft question amnesty but hopefully it's not that daft. Why are bonnet louvres not more common? A lot of cars manufactured, even in original spec, have had overheating issues. One relatively cheap and easy response to this is bonnet louvres. Located in the right position, they seemingly do a pretty good job. How come more weren't included as original spec? I'm thinking about the Dolomite Sprint, with it's tendency to overheat should have surely been a candidate. What are the drawbacks? or reasons why not?
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PhoenixCapri
West Midlands
Posts: 2,684
Club RR Member Number: 91
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Bonnet louvresPhoenixCapri
@phoenixescort
Club Retro Rides Member 91
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Expensive to manufacture I would have thought as a major reason - plus you get all sorts of quality control issues with that kind of stamping. Theres also a chance some legalisation changed making them not too good, but don't know of it off the top of my head - mebbe around the time MGB's got big bumpers in the US? No idea Engineering wise: they only work when you're moving at fair speed - the point of them is to reduce pressure behind the rad so you get a greater airflow through the rad when moving at a fast enough speed for the air hitting the firewall (or even the engine if it totally fills the engine bay!) to create a high pressure behind the rad causing reduced cooling - since less air moves through the rad. At idle with a fan running, I doubt you have a pressure build up that would reduce airflow over the rad, thus louvres wouldn't do anything. And since a lot of over heating is at low speed, the problem more likely lies in poor cooling system design. Of course poor cooling system design was often a problem at higher speeds with pump cavitation etc, but you might be able to improve cooling with louvres rather than a complete engine redesign. Thats very common in car engineering, fixing the cause costs too much, so you find a bodge instead! As for triumphs over heating, I heard a lot of it was down to the fact they they were fine when in tip top condition, but once cooling efficiency dropped with systems furring up etc. then they couldn't cope any more. Thinking about older cars (30's, 40's) where louvres are common, the engine bay tends to be small and wrapped around the engine - this would cause a large pressure behind the radiator even at low speeds, and thus the only way to get air to go through the rad is to vent the air out of louvres on the side of the engine covers. Also they can be used to reduce areodynamic lift, because instead of forcing air under the car at the back of the engine bay (causing lift) some can come out of the top/sides. Hope this explains most of it
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Great response, really interesting too. I have been looking at the idea of getting some louvres stamped into my bonnet as cooling can be marginal so I will do some more research. Interesting that you talk about how they are only effective where there is a pressure differential, and how they can reduce lift. I have reading about their use in Simon McBeaths book and starting to appreciate how these things work together. I am currently thinking that a couple of NACA Ducts, positioned in a high pressure area of the bonnet, to provide greater air under the bonnet would help provide ambient air for the carbs and force fresh, cooler air to the exhaust manifold. This, combined with some louvres to exit more air, as you say, over the car rather than underneath it, seems to make sense. I love this aerodynamic enginnering stuff and am hungry to read and learn more - it's not exactly straightforward is it!
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CIH
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,466
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I recall when they were making the Focus RS bonnet vents actually raised under bonnet temperatures.
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I don't think a lot of cars as standard had overheating issues - only suffering as a result of poor or incorrect maintenance or abuse.
If you think about it, it would be pretty silly to release a car that even in fine condition couldn't operate properly.
Dolomite Sprint (and likewise the Stag) cooling system can be fragile if not looked after properly - but a well sorted one will deal with even heavy traffic without much issue.
Don't forget that most of this stuff is at least 25 years old now....hence the prevalence of problems.
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Last Edit: Nov 4, 2010 22:59:38 GMT by Lewis
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I love this aerodynamic enginnering stuff and am hungry to read and learn more - it's not exactly straightforward is it! tell me about it. we are just coming onto this at uni at the mo. So so interesting learning all about it. I love learning this sort of real world stuff.
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PhoenixCapri
West Midlands
Posts: 2,684
Club RR Member Number: 91
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Bonnet louvresPhoenixCapri
@phoenixescort
Club Retro Rides Member 91
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Aero can seem very very complicated and hard to understand, especially if you attack it from theory from books. I struggled when I first started learning at uni, but was lucky enough to get some time in the MIRA full size wind tunnel as part of the course, and once the practical element was there it almost seemed easy. I like autospeed.com for its aero info - here is the 1st part in their practical aero testing series, well worth a read autospeed.com/A_108656/cms/article.htmland something about locating vents - autospeed.com/cms/A_2159/article.htmlJust search Aero or Aerodynamics on there and you'll keep your brain interested for hours and hours alolymipic - regarding vents to get cold air into the carbs (and cool the exhaust) plus other vents to get hot air out and maybe give some aero benifit - this is totally possible, but requires a lot of thought, and even more testing to make sure it's actually working. If it were me, and I wasn't planning on spending a year choosing where to put the vents, I'd build a cold air intake for the carbs, plummed into a high pressure area (base of the screen is good - see very good article here autospeed.com/cms/A_110680/article.html) that way you know you're getting good flow of cold air to the intake. Regarding exhaust header temps. I'd simply wrap the exhaust (if its steel or cast - its a bad idea on stainless as the higher temp often cracks open the welds) and thus keep the under bonnet temps down that way. As for aero stuff - well if you think you have high pressure behind the rad, the best place to release it is from the back of the front wings - this is normally a low pressure area so it will draw the air out, here's a nice pic That gives you some idea of pressure levels on the body (red is high, dark blue low) and has flow speed lines too for more interest! If you want to reduce lift - well venting it out the side will help, out the top is better, but much harder to choose where to vent it from position wise! I'd not worry about it as you need to do some proper testing to get it right. But if you fancy being practical, go for it ;D Hope that makes some sense and isn't too boring either
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Surely in traffic any hole in the bonnet will let hot air up and out and be useful (assuming running hot rather than trying to keep warm on winter morning)? The holes we drilled in the Porsche albeit bigger than louvres where like mini chimneys letted exhaust temp straight up and out and kept it way cooler. Photo shows one, we had three for heat of Rome and was grand.
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PhoenixCapri
West Midlands
Posts: 2,684
Club RR Member Number: 91
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Bonnet louvresPhoenixCapri
@phoenixescort
Club Retro Rides Member 91
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Well if hot running is due to under bonnet temps from exhaust etc, rather than inefficent cooling from the rad, then in traffic, yes.
While this is true when sationary, things get more complex moving. True it might work, on that porsche at that point on the bonnet I'd have thought it'd generally draw air out from the engine bay when moving - but the question is the benefit worth of the effort of louvres or what many would consider the disadvantage (in terms of looks and water ingress) of holes.
In my own opinion, if the engine is running too hot due to exhaust temps, then the exhaust needs redesigning or wrapping/shielding, cutting holes to let the heat out is a bit of a bodge.
Think it's important to pin down why something is running too hot, then work on how to best improve things to counter the hot temp.
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You dissing my speed holes :-)
To be fair for a permanent car, lke my old Rover P6 I would go uprated rad and better fan, wrap exhaust etc. The Porsche was £100 so not worth it.
Older cars like V8 also run hotter with modern fuels so I'm told, and have to contend with traffic far worse than when built.
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,766
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Several things to check for cooling problems, I always make sure the rad is sealed to the front panel, so all the available air is pushed thru the rad, and not sneaking out the edges, I use self adhesive foam tape to seal this, which is available in different widths, thickness's and density, same goes for fans, they must be either ducted or fitted as close to the rad as possible, even using foam again to ensure a good seal, have the fan stat set as close to the rad thermostat as possible
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Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style. Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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I like autospeed.com for its aero info Agree, I have read up on all of their theory and practical tests ;D It was that site that convinced to buy a ball of cotton wall and so some wool tuft testing on my Olympic. Interestingly, I don't have a specific issue with overheating (touch wood) I am just looking into optimising things for the Olympic. I am making an air box for the Triumph, with an air intake behind the front grille, so not thinking about NACA ducts for that one. The Olympic on the other hand, because of the shape of the nose and bonnet, will need some sort of duct to supply more air to the carbs. Already, decided not to do the exhaust wrap thing tbh. maybe I need to revisit that decision though.... This stuff is fascinating though, so much so, I have contacted Simon McBeath to arrange some consultation on the Olympic. Underfloor aerodynamics are the name of the car for that car...
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