fogey
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Aug 11, 2010 14:12:52 GMT
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Hi, need some help please: Fitting a v8 engine in my Humber Sceptre means that the somewhat cumbersome steering box has to go in favour of a steering rack – even then space is limited. Question 1 The rack has to sit behind the front wheels and a rack from a (classic) Mini would seem to be ideal as far as physical size goes, but my concern is that a rack from a lighter car such as the Mini will not be ‘man’ enough for the job – having said that I’ve seen a couple of v8 engined hot rods and even a V12 engined roadster use a Mini rack - I realise that the GRP bodies of these would be light but the chassis and engines are still pretty heavy. What’s the consensus of opinion? Question 2 The actual column will be in two parts with a UJ at the mid joint. How sharp an angle will a steering UJ cope with? If anyone has any pics of custom steering linkages / set ups then that might prove very helpful. Thanks for any input you can offer – have a period Sceptre brochure pic   |
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Aug 11, 2010 14:18:46 GMT
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The mini rack is pretty direct with 2.5 turns lock to lock (IRC), but with the original steering it might work. Otherwise you could put Opel Corso electric powersteering in it.
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 Click picture for more |
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Aug 11, 2010 14:56:50 GMT
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Don't know if this will be relevant, but I started this thread over on the H.A.M.B. last year about box to rack conversions. Not quite the same setup as you, I guess, but may be of some use. www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=403023Rich at www.rchotrodworks.com was really helpful too, there were pics up on his website but I couldn't find them when I just checked, but there is a write up in the tech section of his site. I emailed him and he sent me a load of stuff. Let me know if the link doesnt work! Edit; forgot to say - we ended up using a cinquecento rack which is tiny, and the steering shaft ran at quite an angle through the uj to clear the starter. Another option is to run two (or more) uj's with a carrier bearing on the shaft to allow you to get around awkward runs. Cheers, Joe |
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Last Edit: Aug 11, 2010 15:00:32 GMT by Deleted
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Aug 11, 2010 15:14:17 GMT
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I hear that Austin 1800 racks used to be a favourite for conversions, back in the day. They're pretty long though, so if you used one you might have to shorten it.
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,593
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Aug 11, 2010 19:13:16 GMT
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Thanks guys Any more? |
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Last Edit: Aug 11, 2010 19:13:33 GMT by fogey
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Aug 11, 2010 19:19:08 GMT
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There's more to it than simply sticking arack in there. The outer pivot points have to coincide with the intersection of a line drawn through upper and lower pivot arms PLUS there is a correlation between the angles of these arms to the horizontal . If you don't get these correct the car will bumpsteer, ie every time you hit a pothole it will dart in a different direction and in really bad cases even the normal suspension movement will send it all over the road.
Steering u/js will not operate past 32' from flat , they start to bind and get notchy , best to split the angle between 2 joint s if the angle is steeper. You alse need to ensure that a double u/j is phased ,like a propshaft, or it will again become notchy.
What sceptre is this as I've stuck a Daimler in a Hunter shape without needing to alter the steering , just required alterations to the crossmember.
Not sure how far you are into this but you are aware of the ramifications re BIVA if bulkhead cutout ?
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Aug 11, 2010 19:29:00 GMT
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There's more to it than simply sticking arack in there. The outer pivot points have to coincide with the intersection of a line drawn through upper and lower pivot arms PLUS there is a correlation between the angles of these arms to the horizontal . If you don't get these correct the car will bumpsteer, ie every time you hit a pothole it will dart in a different direction and in really bad cases even the normal suspension movement will send it all over the road. Absolutely. Back in my dim and distant past I decided to convert my very first car, an A35, to R&P using a Fiat rack bolted to the bulkhead. I learned the hard way about steering and suspension geometry with that one! The width of the rack between the pivots, the mounting height and positioning fore and aft are all pretty critical in an IFS installation. Even slight misalignments can have a huge effect on the function of both ackerman and bumpsteer. |
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1962 Datsun Bluebird Estate - 1971 Datsun 510 SSS - 1976 Datsun 710 SSS - 1981 Dodge van - 1985 Nissan Cherry Europe GTi - 1988 Nissan Prairie - 1990 Hyundai Pony Pickup - 1992 Mazda MX5
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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Steering rack advice pleaseRob M
@zeb
Club Retro Rides Member 41
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Aug 11, 2010 19:34:37 GMT
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Isnt the Daimler lump ( I assume its the V8) an extremely compact engine for what it is? I always assumed that it was even smaller than a Rover V8? As I don't know what I'm talking about  I'm going to suggest that, maybe, you go down the road of the old Custom car route and look into the Viva HA/B/C rack/suspension. It was THE typical mod that rodders used back in the old days, primarily, I assume, because it was very basic and compact and easy to fit to most front ends. |
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Aug 11, 2010 20:04:17 GMT
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Daimler is pretty compact , Rover is actually a HUGE engine for transplanting, it's long ( timing case housing and water pump snout ) and wide ( exhaust manifolds mounted on 'outside' of heads rather than underneath) . If it's a series 1 or 2 Sceptre ,pre Hunter then there is a BIG crossmember underneath with it all in.
Remember that Rootes shoehorned a Small block Ford into an Alpine with virtually the same suspension set up.
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Ads 19
Posted a lot
My old r19
Posts: 1,351
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Aug 11, 2010 21:38:12 GMT
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as its a steering box i assume it means the steering column passes through high up compared to your usual rack and pinion.
just wondering if a saxo one might do the job as its mounted high up on bulkhead? also very adapatable as you can get manual and powersteering versions and also if you gota car have usefull electic pas pump!
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,841
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Steering rack advice pleasestealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Aug 11, 2010 22:28:48 GMT
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You shouldn't have any strength issues, the rack only has to contend with the grip of the tyre as it twists at the contact patch not any actual weight.
Matt
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,593
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Aug 12, 2010 13:10:01 GMT
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Thanks again guys for all the help and advice Am well aware of the bump steer / correct geometry issue and also the implications of BIVA (Kev, we have already spoken about this  ) |
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Aug 12, 2010 13:34:41 GMT
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Saxo/106 racks are a good idea actually - they do mount high up and if you get an early 106 rack, they are dead easy to mount your own steering arms to (Just use a normal rose joint end and a bolt through it) Rather than working like a rack with stubby steering arms from either end, they have a central bracket that moves side to side, and the steering arms join to this, allowing them to be a lot longer (reducing bump steer)  It's upside down in the picture. |
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,593
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Aug 12, 2010 18:58:25 GMT
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Saxo/106 racks are a good idea actually - they do mount high up and if you get an early 106 rack, they are dead easy to mount your own steering arms to (Just use a normal rose joint end and a bolt through it) Rather than working like a rack with stubby steering arms from either end, they have a central bracket that moves side to side, and the steering arms join to this, allowing them to be a lot longer (reducing bump steer) It's upside down in the picture. That looks like an interesting set up - but doesn't the rack in the saxo fit in front of the wheels? - will investigate further tomorrow when I crawl under my daughters 106 - thanks Cobblers |
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Last Edit: Aug 12, 2010 19:04:21 GMT by fogey
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Aug 12, 2010 19:09:38 GMT
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saxo is mounted on the bulkhead- most all FWD cars are as its hard to route the collumn through the block  they are a good little rack. if you want a short more conventional rack, the shortest I have found is a citroen xsara one, its almost narrow enough to use in an E12 bmw for a rack conversion (which I looked into a lot). but as space is a premium then the saxo one is almost unbeatable |
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Ads 19
Posted a lot
My old r19
Posts: 1,351
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Aug 13, 2010 12:59:43 GMT
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yes look behind the engine, don't crawl under the car you wont find it!
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Aug 13, 2010 14:21:42 GMT
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that looks like the mk1 and mk2 astra racks which were of a similar design and the streeing pickup on the front legs was very high ie just below the lower spring cup on the strut if that makes sense
i would love r&p on my Camaro but have read too many posts on american forums to see its ball ache converting from another car to get the angles etc right but then they don't have many EU boxes over there so maybe some LHD elec rack will be ideal
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Aug 13, 2010 16:25:01 GMT
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Thanks again guys for all the help and advice Am well aware of the bump steer / correct geometry issue and also the implications of BIVA (Kev, we have already spoken about this ) Thought the plan looked familiar Apologies for not remembering from the off ,we do rather a lot of this stuff |
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I'm going to suggest that, maybe, you go down the road of the old Custom car route and look into the Viva HA/B/C rack/suspension. It was THE typical mod that rodders used back in the old days, primarily, I assume, because it was very basic and compact and easy to fit to most front ends.
)
