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Apr 19, 2010 12:20:42 GMT
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About to make a fibreglass mould of my transmission tunnel cover. Got everything but the mould release wax. £15 seemed a bit expensive for something just to stop the PVA sticking to the plug.
Anyone know if a generic type wax will do the job? Furniture wax, car wax?
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Last Edit: Apr 19, 2010 17:08:05 GMT by alolympic
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Fibreglass Mould making....stealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Apr 19, 2010 12:47:39 GMT
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From my drunken memories of Area 52 you can use 100% pure bees wax. You need to do about 5 "rub on, buff off" coats of it though.
Matt
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Apr 19, 2010 13:49:17 GMT
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The normal advice is to avoid anything containing silicone - I don't know the reason for this. Theoretically you should be able to use copius amounts of furniture polish though. Why not trial a small area first?
I've just bought a 400g tin of the proper stuff off the bay for £12.50 delivered, so yes, it is pretty expensive just for the one job.
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'83 GTM Coupe. 4A-GE Powered '00 GTM Libra Auto. Ick. '71 Detomaso Pantera. Current Resto '89 GMC Safari Tow/Kip bus '05 SAAB 9-3 Daily '71 Siva Moonbug. Not even contemplating resto yet.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,155
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Fibreglass Mould making....madmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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Apr 19, 2010 14:07:05 GMT
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I'm thought it was PVA OR wax, not both ?
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Apr 19, 2010 14:13:45 GMT
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PVA does the same job as release wax. Just coat the part in PVA, do your layup and when dry, part the FRP from the trans tunnel - the PVA will allow it to release, and will also usually peel away from the gelcoat - if its being stubborn then some warm water will disolve it. I would use PVA over wax if I wanted to be 100% certain that the mould will seperate rom the plug.
Wax on the mould before PVA will help the parts seperate if the draught angles are quite steep, but don't think you will have this issue with a transmission tunnel.
East Coast fibreglass carry everything and their online site is pretty good.
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Last Edit: Apr 19, 2010 14:15:43 GMT by eightsix
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Apr 19, 2010 14:28:24 GMT
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Almost as if quoted from John himself, James ;D
The only other thing to note is that PVA will not give the same perfect finish as wax. But that doesn't matter if you're painting it/covering it in carpet.
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...proper medallion man chest wig motoring.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Fibreglass Mould making....stealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Apr 19, 2010 14:33:11 GMT
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What was the website where John got all his stuff i've forgotten it.
Matt
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Apr 19, 2010 14:50:31 GMT
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...proper medallion man chest wig motoring.
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Apr 19, 2010 15:00:05 GMT
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Thanks Guys, all useful stuff. Completely new to mould making but quite excited by it TBH. The east Coast supplies site looks good, ordered my supplies last week though. Just out of interest, as an alternative to standard matting, could the carbon/kevlar combi matting be used to the same effect in fewer layers, because it has a higher strength? I have gone for 450gsm matting, but the carbon/kevlar stuff is available in 180gsm. If I used that instead, does that mean I could make just as strong a mould, at considerable weight saving?
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Fibreglass Mould making....stealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Apr 19, 2010 15:00:06 GMT
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Excellent, I forgot how cheap all the stuff was. Think I might have a go doing a bonnet now i've got some spare time.
Matt
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DutyFreeSaviour
Europe
Back For More heartbreak and disappointment.....
Posts: 2,944
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Apr 19, 2010 15:19:50 GMT
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ooooh - my poor flexible friend..... bits for the GTT6 will be sorted asap. Wonder if I can knock up a pit shape while the garage floor is mullered ;D 'just drop that in fellas thanks' I too read PVA was the way to go previous users have had better experience on seperation.... although I'm also a newb - so will probably muller it no matter what Good luck - photo's on how it comes out... or step by step guide even? pretty please?
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Back from the dead..... kind of
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Fibreglass Mould making....stealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Apr 19, 2010 15:24:15 GMT
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You can use carbon fibre but it won't have a massive strength benifit. When you're making the actual part it you lay up kevlar where you want any bolts/screws to pass through it'll stop the bolt pulling through.
Matt
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Apr 19, 2010 15:26:13 GMT
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Cant say I don’t pay attention! But if separation is a big concern, I would personally do a lay up with PVA, take a mould, then make a part from that mould – fill sand where required and then take another mould from the part, and then make another part from the perfected mould – long winded but would save the “oh flaps I have just bonded a wad of fibreglass to something and I cant remove it moments!” Trust me, I used wax on the first time I tried to make a mould of one of my velocity stacks – hoping for a pristine finish and they simply wouldn’t separate! PVA means they will always come apart. TBH on the subsequent mould I did using PVA any imperfections in the finish are tiny – even if you were knocking out panels I don’t think anyone would notice. Those Make up sponges John used gave a good even finish though! Guessing you could also spray PVA as well to ensure it goes on nice and smooth. When I am not messing with painting the car I am also going to see if Its possible to spray gelcoat with a normal gun and a big nozzle – for a good even gelcoat thickness. If you plan to use Kevlar / Carbon then you will want Epoxy resin. Whilst you can use Polyester with Kev / Carb its quite brittle and not as strong. Carbon and Kevlar will always be stronger than FRP of an equivalent thickness. But you wouldn’t want to waste Carbon / Kevlar on making a mould – use chop mat for the mould then make the plug with the material you want as the finished product. 450gsm chop mat sounds pretty thick though, cant remember what I normally use. FYI to avoid any mess etc – mask off the area’s you don’t want the FRP to stick to with masking tape / parcel tape. Resin won’t stick to the tape. Just means you can make a nice neat mould without the resin running out all over your floor pan. If you don’t have PVA or Wax you can use tape as a release agent if needed.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,155
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Fibreglass Mould making....madmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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Apr 19, 2010 16:10:02 GMT
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On my FG training day they said that to go up in strength from standard glassfibre, first change the polyester resin for epoxy resin with the glass. The glass is stronger than people give it credit for with polyester resin being the weak link. Using polyester with carbon or kevlar looks nice but you don't get to benefit from the properties of the expensive fibres without epoxy.
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Apr 19, 2010 17:04:38 GMT
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Another question.....sorry Guys! This may actually belong in the Daft question amnesty... Because the part I am making is a transmission tunnel cover, that will then be covered in tunnel heat shield, and then trimmed, the finish is not critical. Could I actually use the mould itself? I appreciate it will be a few mm larger than the plug itself, but that won't present a problem. Or, am I just being a lazy curse word!?
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Apr 19, 2010 17:26:52 GMT
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Madmog, all correct, like you say, woven glass with epoxy's stronger than carbon with polyester. Epoxy's a little bit more tricky to get right though, as the catalyst percentage is crucial to the final strength, unlike polyester where it'll only really effect the pot life. It's also nasty stuff to get on your skin, you can get sensitized to it pretty easily, so double gloving's not a bad plan when you're using it.
Eight six, yes you can indeed use gelcoat with a normal gun and a big ass nozzle, can't remember the best size for it, but I can find out if you like.
450g csm sounds good to be honest. I wouldn't want too thin an exhaust tunnel, a bit of protection could be nice if the flywheel decides to let go for any reason. I'd even be tempted to put a strip of aramid around it directly where the flywheel will sit.
As for release agents, I've never seen bad results from 5 layers of wax, then a thin layer of PVA. And that's on plugs that have had 30+ hours prep on them, so you really don't want to cock it up! haha.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,155
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Fibreglass Mould making....madmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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Apr 19, 2010 17:29:13 GMT
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Another question.....sorry Guys! This may actually belong in the Daft question amnesty... Because the part I am making is a transmission tunnel cover, that will then be covered in tunnel heat shield, and then trimmed, the finish is not critical. Could I actually use the mould itself? I appreciate it will be a few mm larger than the plug itself, but that won't present a problem. Or, am I just being a lazy jolly pain in the backside!? Don't know but since you have to make the mould anyway, why not try and se. If it works it's a cover, if it doesn't it's a mould. Oh, is the transmission cover a structural element in your car?
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Apr 19, 2010 17:34:51 GMT
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As stated before...mate of mine who used to work in the FG industry said that normal beeswax can be used...hell of a lot cheaper than release agent
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,155
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Fibreglass Mould making....madmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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Apr 19, 2010 20:31:06 GMT
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Madmog, all correct, like you say, woven glass with epoxy's stronger than carbon with polyester. Epoxy's a little bit more tricky to get right though, as the catalyst percentage is crucial to the final strength, unlike polyester where it'll only really effect the pot life. It's also nasty stuff to get on your skin, you can get sensitized to it pretty easily, so double gloving's not a bad plan when you're using it. Robinji At some point I'm going to make a bonnet out of plain old glass/polyester but am wondering about reinforcing the hinge and bonnet pin area with some carbon or kevlar. Could you advise the best way to do this please? I.e. what surface area from the bolting point, what gsm, weave, and number of layers would you use; would it be carbon or kevlar, and would it be embedded with another layer of glass or the last layer in the lay-up? Also you mention aramid in the area of the gearbox cover by the flywheel, again, what qualities and layup would you recommend? (sorry ofr a bit of a hijack) Ta Madmog Cheers
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Apr 19, 2010 21:45:35 GMT
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What kind of car are you looking at making the bits for? I've only really had experience with mini panels so far, I'm currently doing a work placement with a company who make composite parts, mostly for mini's. So I'm very much still learning myself. I know that on most panels I've come across, the mounting points tend to be bonded on afterwards, as far as I'm aware this is just to keep them from effecting the shape of the surface layers as everything sets and contracts slightly. It also has the handy side effect (that a local guy found out recently in his glanza), that if someone doesn't shut your bonnet properly, and it opens at speed, rather then ripping your fancy carbon bonnet to pieces and smashing it into your windscreen. It simply rips the hinges off, and all you have to do is bond them back on and fix the scratch's. Aramid is simply another name for kevlar. Kevlar's technically a trade name, where as aramid's the actual material. Kind of like calling a vacuum cleaner a hoover. I was advising it for the exhaust tunnel as it's very good at absorbing impacts, and much less prone to shattering than carbon. My work experience make sump guards out of a carbon+kevlar layup, to quote them: "One incident involved the mini hitting a log flat out in third gear (the car ended up on top of the log), there was no damage to the sump guard. (the owner said a steel sump guard would not have survived)."
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