Tim
Posted a lot
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May 18, 2009 11:49:30 GMT
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So in my endless efforts to plan my own cool, cheap, practical and low-environmental-guilt (i'm an environmental scientist by career) retro, i have been toying with the idea of electric vehicles However these had a few big issues - main ones being range, weight and COST!! So this morning, with the radio not working in the car, i had time to think on my commute - leccy power might not be a goer, but how about a leccy assisted drivetrain - like a lexus, but not huge and stupid: Take a nice RWD retro - in my case it would be a smallish old estate car of some kind - mk1 /2 escort for example. Fit a smallish modern diesel (say (say the 1.6 TD from a Focus) - these will drag girt heavy moderns around to illegal figures whilst still giving 50mpg (not at the same time..i know) Use a fairly high geared gearbox (say from a sierra diesel with a final drive/diff adjustment) So far, this sounds awful to many of you doesn't it :-) Ah hang on You then take 2 smallish electric motors and mount them parrallel to each other side of the prop, each with a chain drive to a freewheel mounted on the prop - one either side so they don't yank the prop to one side, and also doubles up power shilt still being small) These can provide secondary drive, giving the lacklustre diesel lump a kick up the  and allowing you to have an economical retro that has a surprising turn of speed (this is all in my head anyway so far!) The elec motors would be powered by several batteries that are under the rear seat/down the side of the load bay - importantly it would only need a few (instead of the massive amount a totally-electric car would need) as its primarily a diesel so the weight and cost issues ould be minimised A modern is weigh heavier than a retro, and has much high alternator load from leccy goodies, so i'm taking a punt that economy would still be good even after you have added some more weight of the batterys and also the extra load of charging them. The batteries would be trickle charged by an enlarged alternator when at normal speeds I even thought about doing a dyno run on diesel, a dyno run on electric, and then having an onboard computer that enabled the elec motors when there was a lack of power by comparing the two graphs - then realised that was completely pointless :-) It doesnt even have to be at what - they could switch at half-way, or use a kickdown type affair Constructive criticism awaited :-) Tim Google Image Search for electric retro car:   |
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luckygti
Posted a lot
I need to try harder!
Posts: 4,912
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May 18, 2009 12:08:08 GMT
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Mmmm, don't know a lot about electric stuff but the idea sounds like a good one. Having said that a decent turbocharged engine from a modern is going to be pretty quick anyway. I have thoughts about the TDCI engine from my Mondeo ST going into a cortina, serious shift, and really good fuel consumption!  Love the white car above, but think the orange one is what comes to mind when electric cars are mentioned! |
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May 18, 2009 12:13:17 GMT
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what about a citroen ZX diesel engine as you could run it on veggie oil too |
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1993 Fiat Panda Selecta
2003 Vauxhall Combo 1.7DI van
2006 Mercedes Kompressor Evolution-S AMG SportCoupé
"You think you hate it now, wait til you drive it"
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Tim
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,340
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May 18, 2009 12:19:37 GMT
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what about a citroen ZX diesel engine as you could run it on veggie oil too Thats a good point - an older engine is better for that reason |
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Tim
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,340
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May 18, 2009 12:20:41 GMT
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Mmmm, don't know a lot about electric stuff but the idea sounds like a good one. Having said that a decent turbocharged engine from a modern is going to be pretty quick anyway. I have thoughts about the TDCI engine from my Mondeo ST going into a cortina, serious shift, and really good fuel consumption! Love the white car above, but think the orange one is what comes to mind when electric cars are mentioned! there is that - would the gains actuallybe worth it, when you just fit a modern TD engine? hmmm... |
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May 18, 2009 12:53:33 GMT
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I'd have to recommend leaving the electric motors out and just going for the modern turbo-diesel conversion. It'll probably give you twice the milage AND twice the power of the retro car's original engine, so there's really no need to make it any more complex and expensive chasing small further gains. Diesel-powered retros ftw!
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May 18, 2009 13:01:11 GMT
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but hybrids get tax breaks and don't pay congestion charges, i'd look into exactly what you have to have to be considered a hybrid and build it with the bare minimum electric assistance and rely on the modern weasel to give you your cheap running costs.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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May 18, 2009 13:40:11 GMT
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you could have some kind of sproket (like a push bike) where it ticks over when not being used (therefore not turning the elec motor) as leaving them turning all the time will just cause undue wear..... or another less clunky version maybe centrefugal clutches? to engage them?
oh and how about having and extra dynamo fitted so that it again means less batterys and it can take alot of power from the allready running diesel engine? if you don't want to drain power from the engine (like air con compressors do) put it on the drivetrain somewhere? like running off the prop?
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Last Edit: May 18, 2009 13:41:58 GMT by retrowagen1234
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mym
Part of things
Posts: 443
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May 18, 2009 13:56:05 GMT
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wouldnt you be better off with a single elctric motor mounted somewhere in or around the gearbox to provide a KER's like boost, or even run on pure electric power?
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May 18, 2009 20:45:54 GMT
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i've got a hybrid (mazda in a datsun) do I get a tax break? ;D i'd have to agree with the diesel in a retro idea. i'd like to fit a merc cdi into a mk2 jag. and the pink salmon trouser brigade would hate it. perfect.  untill we get a working hydrogen powered motor and can make the fuel easyly, i'm quite happy using oil. |
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Last Edit: May 18, 2009 21:01:15 GMT by Al Ramone
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May 18, 2009 22:55:24 GMT
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Why not make a diesel electric? Same principal as the trains, just in a car  Could run it on the old oil from the chippie too. |
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If you were really keen to do a hybrid, then my suggestion would be to keep the diesel and electric drivetrains completely separate in order to simplify things. Go for a front-wheel-drive car, and swap in the complete engine/trans from a modern turbo-diesel front wheel drive car. Then, to make it a hybrid, install an independent rear suspension with a differential, from something like a Subaru rear end or similar. Then add an electric motor mounted directly to the diff centre. This makes both drivetrains inherently simple, and eliminates the need to mess about with custom-made clutches and mad chain-driven propshafts. In fact, an electric-powered rear diff is actually available as a JDM-only option on many FWD Japanese cars to make them temporarily 4wd for snow driving in winter. You can then go ahead and mount extra alternators and batteries as required to make it as much of a true hybrid as you wish.
The bonus with this system is that you can run either drivetrain independently, or both together. In carparks and traffic, just switch off the diesel, stick it in neutral and cruise around as an all-electric. Also, the road is a perfectly adequate method of connecting the two together for charging on the go. Regen braking on the rear axle is also fairly simple to do. Having said all that, I would just put in the diesel and use it on it's own. But if I was asked to build a DIY hybrid vehicle, that's how I would do it.
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I'd be surprised if you needed the boost from the electric motors as you suggest, but if you do, would starter motors be a suitable and cheap powersource? perhaps operating on a secondary flywheel of different diameter?
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Remade In Australia
thereimaginarium.com.au
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berendd
Europe
why do I need 3 keys for one car?
Posts: 1,449
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stick a modern diesel in a retro and just diesel it.. it'll give far better mpg than any hybrid..
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I'd be surprised if you needed the boost from the electric motors as you suggest, but if you do, would starter motors be a suitable and cheap powersource? perhaps operating on a secondary flywheel of different diameter? starter motors are not designed for continuous use, they soon burn out if you ask them to do any real work over a long period of time. |
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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street
Posted a lot
6.2 ft/lbs of talk
Posts: 4,662
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May 19, 2009 11:35:16 GMT
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I like your thinking Tim! I reckon it has legs, and would be a fun thing to design and develop. I can't offer much in the way of technical help because I know zero about electric power! But what about taking a different approach- Strap a diesel lump as an auxilary motor to an already electric vehicle? This seems far less daunting to me. I'm thinking get something like a milk float (no tax or MOT needed IIRC, bonus!) which already has it's electric power set up and ready to go. Then just set about boshing your diesel engine in there to power the front wheels (assuming the milkfloats are rear wheel drive). From then you could decide weather you want to make the engines run in tandem or independently and design the engage/disengage side of things accordingly. Plus, i've often thought a milkfloat would make an awesome custom pick-up |
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Ed
Part of things
Posts: 600
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May 19, 2009 11:39:22 GMT
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Plus, i've often thought a milkfloat would make an awesome custom pick-up Haha, so wrong yet SO right ;D |
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Tim
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,340
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May 19, 2009 11:39:38 GMT
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Cool
cheers guys, good stuff
/ingests information
:-)
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May 19, 2009 12:19:59 GMT
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I have just finished a project designing a hybrid transmission for "low volume RWD specialist cars". The result was i came up with a viable system compromising of two clutches and a "pancake" style electric motor to create a parallel hybrid (parallel = engine/motor mechanically linked, series = no mechanical link). I theoretically proved it was a sound design, and after working with hybrid trucks for a while in my previous job i know it works in practice too...BUT. The BUT is you need lots of cash and/or expertise. the system i designed needed only 2 custom made components but they would still cost the same as some retro's! Then you have your energy storage (batteries/flywheels) which are big money, and then the control systems (also big money). Doable, and i would guess starting at about 10-15k you could have a neat hybrid vehicle that would be bloody powerful and efficient. Not many shortcuts though, and if your going to do it...why not do it properly? My project (L to R - ENgine, clutch1, motor, clutch 2, gearbox):  |
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Shelby Daytona - Scratchbuild project.
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Tim
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,340
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May 19, 2009 15:13:51 GMT
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Thats very cool - my idea was a lot more ghetto though :-)
I would like to try it out though :-)
One day, when i get my workspace/money!
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Love the white car above, but think the orange one is what comes to mind when electric cars are mentioned! 
