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Jul 18, 2023 16:09:23 GMT
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Well, i have a R100, it is now 1.8, it goes really well, but the problem is that the hydrolastic units need servicing, and it started off as a 1.1
I'm just wondering if anyone has been int he same position as I'm a little unsure what to do now. I wanted to keep the linked units but i think they just wont work properly.
I have heard of people using recharged units, and individualising them but i don't have any gti anti roll bars, and they seem to be quite expencive.
i have bought a mgft front subframe that will fit, but it has the spring rates for the rear i think of the metro as the front of the tf has no engine in it. Then there is the problem of the rear, do i convert to springs or use individualised units there.
ATM, the car is quite dangerous to drive, so i need to sort out what I'm doing with it asap really, has anyone got any input? thanks
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Jul 18, 2023 17:07:44 GMT
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It's not difficult.
Tired displacers have the same effect as worn shocks and springs combined on a 'normal' suspension. So the first thing to do is fit regassed ones. MGF displacers are a slight upgrade, and are probably easier to find in a state worth regassing.
That solves most of the lack of spring/damping.
I don't see the point of individualising on a road car, and there isn't much ground clearance for a heavy lowering job.
All R100s should have had the front shocks fitted to GTIs and diesels. Fortunately it isn't difficult to retro fit them; all bodyshells have the holes, you just need to weld in the stiffeners then fir stock MGF front shocks. They're a fraction of the price of adjustables, which again, aren't necessary.
Poly bushes for the wishbones are available, as they're shared with the MGF.
It's worth checking the balljoints, upper front pivots and rear trailing arm bearings, as wear in any of those will cause issues. As does a rotten rear subframe or broken subframe mounts. Rot in the rear sills and floors easily carries into the body end of those mounts too,
The anti-roll bars finish the job, but you won't benefit from them until the rest is up to scratch. Nor are they cheap once you eventually find them.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:19:44 GMT
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right ok, ive never seen any reference online about fitting mgf displacers, but dosnt mean people don't. My 4 all look outside to be good, but i recon there is no gas in them. I can get my mate to braze some fittings for the valves, i have tried to mig a spare one i have and they just leak. I think if i get one of those bottles of nitrogen from ebay again, i can pressurise it myself.
i can see a set of mgf front shocks for £60 new on ebay, so i think thats a winner.
All the other suspension components seem to be good, new bottom arms, no play in the top, no movement in the rear arms that i can feel.
Id rather use whats on it as its a R100 metro, thats how they should be.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:00:51 GMT
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Trying to think what I had done to my mg metro back In the day Something was machined down from inside the spheres although I think that was to lower it
At the rear I ran twin anti roll bars held togeather with blocks from Avon at racing
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Jul 18, 2023 21:14:21 GMT
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right ok, ive never seen any reference online about fitting mgf displacers, but dosnt mean people don't. My 4 all look outside to be good, but i recon there is no gas in them. I can get my mate to braze some fittings for the valves, i have tried to mig a spare one i have and they just leak. I think if i get one of those bottles of nitrogen from ebay again, i can pressurise it myself. i can see a set of mgf front shocks for £60 new on ebay, so i think thats a winner. All the other suspension components seem to be good, new bottom arms, no play in the top, no movement in the rear arms that i can feel. Id rather use whats on it as its a R100 metro, thats how they should be. If you don't like the idea of MGF displacers, use Metro GTI ones. The easiest way to get some is to remove them from an MGF...
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Jul 19, 2023 16:43:08 GMT
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Depends on a lot of factors really. To lower them and stiffen them you need to machine the trumpets that slide in to the base of the spheres and on top of the knuckle joints. There is a ratio of what to remove from the trumpets, 3:1 front, 5:1 rear. So for every 30mm of lowering on the front you need to remove 10mm, 50mm on the rear for every 10mm removed. first you need to set a pressure. A good starting point is 450psi. So, stock suspension, pump it up to 450psi with a hydragas pump. Then measure how much you want to lower it and work out what you need to remove from the trumpets. Re-install and pump up to 450psi and you should be there or there abouts. Also, bin the front to rear link pipe and fit one valve on each sphere so it is fully independent on all corners (do this before you initial height test on stock trumpets). I would also advise using MGF spheres as stock non-gti/gta spheres don't last long under pressure and are older. You will then need to fit front dampers with the top brackets (or the inner wing support will tear). Stock MGF dampers will be ok to start with but wont last long as they'll be under 70% compression. Also fit rear droop stop spacers to the back. Anti-roll bars make a huge difference but bargain on £300 for a pair with fittings. Check your rear radius arm bearing are knackered otherwise you'll be rear-steering all over the shop. That is a basic "fast road" set-up as a starting point.
You can go down the coilover kit route. Fronts need brackets fabbing to mounting to the subframe as the inner wing will die even with the gti brackets if you run coilovers off them, and you'll need to install rear turrets and a lower shock bolt bracket.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:45:24 GMT
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I don't really want to lower it that much, here is how it looks now looks quite standard, but its on 14" mgf spare wheels, and rover 200 wheel trims. Looks quite standard, and witht eh 1.8 it flys! Gets quite a lot of attention to be fair. But, atm when its doing say 70 mph its all over the place, i think its lost most of its nitrogen, so far i had seen prices of £400 to get them regassed plus postage. Just seen a lad less than a hour away that can do it for £40 a corner, and he says also he can revalve them for fast road. this is from ebay I was trying to make the decision to go with the TF front subframe, or to stay with the linked or split system. when fitting the mgf units, i take it you put two rear ones on the front? and do you put two fronts on the rear? Mine are in fair condition to look at, used mgf ones quick look are like £280 for 4 on ebay, but I'm more bothered about it not trying to bounce me off the road so the standard ones maybe ok? Can you tell me more about the rear droop stop spacers please? thanks for the kind reply
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Jul 19, 2023 22:41:23 GMT
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The MGF displacers are the same as fitted to Metro GTIs which gives a small, but useful, upgrade. But most are pretty tired and need regassing, so you might as well just do that to yours and save a few quid for the anti-rollbars.
Have you read the Metropower website? That explains all you need to know, with pictures.
Contact Component Engineering for some of the parts you might need.
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Jul 20, 2023 19:25:17 GMT
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i spoke to the ebay guy about my suspension today, he said that the gti/mgf units, when he has taken them apart he cant really see any difference in them, but just using my set up was good. He said the cup cars, he put less gas in them which makes them harder. i think i want factory ride. He also said that my units could be damaged if they are empty, but a replacement one from him is £60. He seemed a really knollageable guy on the phone.
Ive got a pg1 box to fit to it, while I'm doing that ill do the suspension.
not been on the metropower web site, will have a look!
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Jul 21, 2023 12:07:50 GMT
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Less gas just messes them up internally, not something I'd advise at all. Ride comfort is all about pressure. If you want the factory ride you need to set it at the factory pressures/ride height and then work out your lowering ratios from that.
Back in the good old days I used to use citroen LHM fluid rather than the hydragas fluid as that really helped with damping. I'd get 2/3 years from a unit until it knackered the internally diaphragms, but repalcements were alot more common back then.
Don't go jumping in to a PG1 swap on a nasp 1.8. A good R65U from a later car is more suited to road driving and has a good range of ratios. PG1 is better for long-legged 1.8 turbo swaps really.
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Jul 21, 2023 16:13:13 GMT
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thanks for the reply! My car is a later R100, it has the R65, and probably the R65U i am not sure. When i put the 1800 in, i had the box out and i never checked the oil, it had later on i found 1/2 ltr of oil in it, the diff whines now. So my plan was to use the PG1 as an upgrade, and also the clutch i am on is a 1100 one. It seems ok atm but I'm not 100% sure of it now.
Probably slightly longer legged may help me with the car, first does seema little short, and top is ok but i will be going to retro rides at mallory hopefully in it and it will suit it better. But not sure yet.
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Jul 21, 2023 16:29:48 GMT
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For me, the R65 is the biggest limitation for an 1800 swap. That's nothing to do with it's often mentioned weakness, but all about the ratios. I hate short gearing in a road car, and that's exacerbated by decent torque/power levels in a light car. The 1100 ratios essentially return you to a four speed gearbox, as first is utterly pointless and wheelspin isn't difficult to provoke throughout second complete with horrendous tramp. There's no point in having power you cannot use. The 1400 ratios are better, but still not ideal.
It's moot for me as any 1800 would be coming out of an MGF, so would have everything but the gearlinkage to fit into a Metro - gearbox, complete clutch hydraulics, subframe mounts, driveshafts etc. I would fit the PG1 without a second thought. The taller ratios are helpful when you're using the smaller tyre diameters necessary in a Metro.
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Jul 21, 2023 16:51:35 GMT
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thats a point too, the clutch, i have heard they use early metro master cylinders. My car has a black plate where the brake and clutch come threw, i take it i would need one of those too?
also i have seen engine mount correction plates on ebay, what do they actually do? does it matter for drive shafts?
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Last Edit: Jul 21, 2023 16:52:58 GMT by bmw2101
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Jul 21, 2023 17:26:43 GMT
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Some PG1s are cable, MGFs are hydraulic.
MGF and Metro pedal box is the same, so you fit the MGF clutch pedal, pushrod, bulkhead plate and master cylinder. Then all you need to make is a new pipe to connect the M/C to the stock flexi hose to the slave cylinder.
The correction plates are used when you don't have the MGF engine and gearbox subframe mounts.
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Jul 21, 2023 20:05:26 GMT
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oh right ok, it looks like then it moves the engine mount arm back like 20mm or something? My engine now sits close to the front panel, is that why then!?
If i do the box, ill take the arm off and just cut and weld the mount back.
The clutch then, the black plate that the master sits on, can i mod the one i have? i really didnt want to get into a project with this car, but then it goes so well! In some ways though it would have been a lot easier to turbo the 1100.
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Jul 24, 2023 13:18:22 GMT
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thanks for the reply! My car is a later R100, it has the R65, and probably the R65U i am not sure. When i put the 1800 in, i had the box out and i never checked the oil, it had later on i found 1/2 ltr of oil in it, the diff whines now. So my plan was to use the PG1 as an upgrade, and also the clutch i am on is a 1100 one. It seems ok atm but I'm not 100% sure of it now. Probably slightly longer legged may help me with the car, first does seema little short, and top is ok but i will be going to retro rides at mallory hopefully in it and it will suit it better. But not sure yet. Bearing issues are common on the PG1 too unless you upgrade to steel caged bearings. If it only had 1/2 litre in the R65 thats why it has a dead diff, obviously a leak from the driveshaft seals or casing seal, it doesn't just evaporate. I personally prefer R65's, others PG1. I like building mine with point and squirt characteristics, and the R65 is perfect for that. 120mph+ in a Metro without a good cage in it isn't my idea of fun. One of my 1.8t's easily did 140 but it was built for that and had the PG1. You will also need the MGF rear subframe if you go PG1, mainly for the lower torque mount on the sump. You will need to drill out the holes to mount the steering rack and a couple of redundant brackets need lopping off. To keep a cable clutch set-up you need the release arm from a PG1 200/25/ZR and the gearbox mount from the same as it has the guide tube for the cable. You then weld this to the MGF gearbox mount. To get the speedo working you need the lower cable from a mechanical speedo drive PG1, and the upper cable from an early mk3 1.1 carb metro. Gear linkage you need to modify 200/25/ZR PG1, and use the lower steering column knuckle from one to weld to the end where it mounts to the gearbox. Best PG1 clutch option is Freelander 1.8 flywheel and 228mm 200/25/ZR diesel clutch, but if youre just stock 1800 MGF clutch will suffice.
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Jul 24, 2023 13:36:00 GMT
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tbh id ditch the hydro from the start and not waste my time on it. Done plenty of dabbling with it over the years and never been able to make it work how i wanted. Id be careful ploughing a load of money into it with so called 'experts' ive seen some bloody awful advice coming out of some of them. A guy makes a kit to convert the front to coils now. The rears requires turrets welding in but its worth it for a performance car. So much easier to set up a car with springs!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jul 24, 2023 19:07:23 GMT
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tbh id ditch the hydro from the start and not waste my time on it. Done plenty of dabbling with it over the years and never been able to make it work how i wanted. Id be careful ploughing a load of money into it with so called 'experts' ive seen some bloody awful advice coming out of some of them. A guy makes a kit to convert the front to coils now. The rears requires turrets welding in but its worth it for a performance car. So much easier to set up a car with springs! I'm glad some else suggested it. A decent coilover kit would be the way I'd go (it sounds like there are enough folks out there to do it. Yes, decent kits are pricey, but you do get what you pay for when it comes to suspension. As said, the spring rates will be easier to play with, and it should be simpler to do. With the right dampers and adjustability, it should be alot simpler to dial in. The other thing I'd suggest is bracing the subframes. I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure the Metros came with effectively half a Mini Subframe, so they twist as a result. Whether this is for handling, I don't know. I do know however that my: -Pug 306 D Turbo -Pug 106 GTi could run circles around a mate's 1.1 R100. I was shocked TBH ; The 306 was only the 75BHP model as well! When I spoke to folks who had dabbled with them before, they cited the subframes not being as solid as a Mini, as I recall Minis being able to corner very well indeed. Maybe it was the lack of ARBs which didn't help either. However, there is a Group A 'brace' kit from memory, which RetroWarwicK has looked into previously. From what I understand, it makes a pleasant difference.
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Last Edit: Jul 24, 2023 19:08:43 GMT by ChasR
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Jul 25, 2023 10:20:44 GMT
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tbh id ditch the hydro from the start and not waste my time on it. Done plenty of dabbling with it over the years and never been able to make it work how i wanted. Id be careful ploughing a load of money into it with so called 'experts' ive seen some bloody awful advice coming out of some of them. A guy makes a kit to convert the front to coils now. The rears requires turrets welding in but its worth it for a performance car. So much easier to set up a car with springs! I'm glad some else suggested it. A decent coilover kit would be the way I'd go (it sounds like there are enough folks out there to do it. Yes, decent kits are pricey, but you do get what you pay for when it comes to suspension. As said, the spring rates will be easier to play with, and it should be simpler to do. With the right dampers and adjustability, it should be alot simpler to dial in. The other thing I'd suggest is bracing the subframes. I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure the Metros came with effectively half a Mini Subframe, so they twist as a result. Whether this is for handling, I don't know. I do know however that my: -Pug 306 D Turbo -Pug 106 GTi could run circles around a mate's 1.1 R100. I was shocked TBH ; The 306 was only the 75BHP model as well! When I spoke to folks who had dabbled with them before, they cited the subframes not being as solid as a Mini, as I recall Minis being able to corner very well indeed. Maybe it was the lack of ARBs which didn't help either. However, there is a Group A 'brace' kit from memory, which RetroWarwicK has looked into previously. From what I understand, it makes a pleasant difference. Yes, essentially a half frame mounted with two rubber sandwich mount each side at the front and the rear supported by the flimsy straps around the hydro cans! You can solid mount the rear end with a simple bracket on the frame with a bolt though the floor to a spreader plate (ideally with a brace bar between each plate linking the two together). You can also ditch the rubber from the sandwich mounts and replace with nylon to essentially give you a solid mounted frame, but the mounting areas on the shell need to be solid and ideally stitch welded in that area. I think the semi-floating OE design was to give a little rear steer feeling, but is a dated way of doing it now. Putting a lower brace bar at the base of the rear of the rear subframe is easy enough. not really neccesary if you've sloid mounted the rear anyway, and tend to wallop on speed bumps (particualrly those square ones) as the hang quite low on a lowered car. Coilovers, yes are nicer and ALOT easier to set up once you done the installation work and fiddled with spring rates. But, all the cup cars still run hydragas front and rear (albeit with front dampers, think the got rid of running rear dampers in the last regs "update"...) and they can bang in some pretty good lap times still. They claim that is due to not wanting to increase costs to compete, but a new hydragas pump is £600, plus fluid, plus machining, faffing around installing washers on the knuckles if you want to raise it but retain the same can pressure yada yada yada. TBH it's one of the reasons I've dragged out finishing a car I built to race with but then the reg changes came in and if you are out of the reg requirements you can compete but in the non-points scoring class, which is empty....
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820
South East
Posts: 790
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Jul 25, 2023 10:43:34 GMT
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Not really helpful but on subject. The Reyland Metro on track with Ford Cosworths. its an oldy but still brilliant with classic lines "How quick is that F*****g Metro man" and "That Metro's F*****g rapid"
I had a Rover Metro 1.4 twin cam GTA many years ago, proper quick little car that could see off supposedly much quicker cars.
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