vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,087
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Jan 17, 2022 22:38:41 GMT
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1980 Austin Princess 1700 O series manual with an HIF6 single carburettor and Accuspark electronic ignition. No points and condenser. Manual choke.
First problem is a newer one, which is that on the first start of the day it's taking three attempts before the car will idle. It cranks and catches quickly, but then stumbles and dies. Any throttle will make it cut out immediately until after the third attempt at which point it responds normally. Less choke makes it worse (I usually have to use half to three quarters choke when it's cold out) and it usually won't fire if it's below half-choke. Starter is cranking normally and fuel pump (in-tank electric) appears to be operating normally. It's only started doing this in the last few days, before that it was starting on the first turn of the key without issue. Fuel filter looks clear and fuel flow appears to be good on a visual inspection. Car is running on fresh E5 unleaded.
Second problem is an older one and comes and goes. More often when cold, but sometimes not, when you set off in first it will set off as normal and then stumble and try and stall. If you quickly dip the clutch and apply more revs it usually behaves normally and doesn't do it again. Clutch is fairly new, and both master and slave cylinder are also new-ish. I'm having no trouble selecting gears. This one has bugged me for a long time with this car because it's intermittent and whenever I try and replicate it, the car won't do it. Once the car has warmed up and is off choke it doesn't do it at all. This problem does tend to go away completely in warmer weather and is more prevalent on cold and damp days rather than cold and dry days. It's also worse when the car has been stood for a couple of days unused.
I'd like to show you a short video of both problems but whenever I get the camera out to record it, the car resolutely refuses to act up and behaves as if nothing is wrong.
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First thing that comes to mind is that fuel is draining back to the tank, and you're not getting a good supply? Or the fuel pump has a small hole in a diaphragm and isntsupplying enough for the engine when it's cold?
Edit- I'm not that well up on SU carbs, is that the one with the float chamber on the side, or integral?
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I am reliably informed that monkey skin makes excellent fuel pump diaphragms.
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I am reliably informed that monkey skin makes excellent fuel pump diaphragms. Typical, I'm all out of monkeys! 🤔 Edit- with apologies to vulgalour for the random direction his serious thread has taken!
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Choke is bowden cable on these? Has the mechanism slipped on the cable, ie are you getting full choke?
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Jan 18, 2022 13:50:12 GMT
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As above, sounds like it's not getting full choke, I'd check the cable and linkages first then perhaps the float level and the piston isn't sticking.
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Jan 18, 2022 14:19:13 GMT
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It could even be a mucky carb and need cleaning out, it sat a long time doing nothing didnt it?
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,087
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Jan 18, 2022 15:16:17 GMT
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Fuel pump diaphragm - unlikely. It's on an in-tank electric rather than an external mechanical. The pump is also only a few years old.
SU Carb - integral float rather than on one side. Carb was rebuilt fully not too long ago with new parts and is quite clean, the float level appears to be correct, I'm not getting any flooding issues and, as far as I can tell, no bent needle, sticking float, or worn components. There was a suspicion the throttle spindle might be at fault but that seems less likely now. No poppet valve on the flap either, just a solid flap on this carb,so that's not going to be the issue either. I did also check for vacuum leaks, particularly around the spacer where it bolts to the manifold, and there doesn't appear to be one. Car sat about for a few months only so I wouldn't expect the internals to be that bad, but I may drop the bottom plate off to see if there's any sediment in it. This carb hasn't been particularly prone to getting dirty inside from lack of use.
Choke - it is indeed a cable type on this. I am getting full motion of the choke cable both at the carb and at the pull inside the car. I'm not getting any restriction or binding, and there's no excessive slack. The only issue with the cable is that I have to use the traditional clothes pegs to keep it in place since the locking mechanism doesn't lock. The pegs aren't slipping out of place or allowing the cable to slip.
If I can get it do to either of these things its doing on camera I will, it might make diagnosis easier. I suppose it could just be Old Car Stuff, but I've had this car running without these problems for a good amount of time so that's what makes me think something is amiss.
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93fxdl
Posted a lot
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Posts: 2,000
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Jan 18, 2022 22:00:43 GMT
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Definitely sounds like a fuel related issue, ut I wonder if it could be ignition related, cold starts put the most stress on the electrical system, might be fine once warm but cold and damp can tip things over the edge Ttfn Glenn
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Jan 18, 2022 22:16:02 GMT
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I take it you've got enough oil in the carb dashpot? My Traveller with HIF4 is very sensitive to this, and gets hesitant on acceleration if it's running too low.
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Jan 18, 2022 22:35:53 GMT
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I take it you've got enough oil in the carb dashpot? My Traveller with HIF4 is very sensitive to this, and gets hesitant on acceleration if it's running too low. I was thinking exactly this. My 1275GT had an HIF44 which had similar symptoms when the dashpot oil was low (or the wrong grade). Keith Calver goes into far more detail about it here: www.calverst.com/technical-info/su-carbs-dashpot-oil/
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,087
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Jan 18, 2022 23:22:09 GMT
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Actually the dashpot is a good call for the starting issue, I thought about when I last checked it and it was... before taking the head off*. So, it's entirely likely that's a bit low. It would also explain the intermittent nature of the stumbling issue because I've never checked that against dashpot levels so may never have just linked the two together. Hopefully that will help with some of the problems. If it cures it (or not), I'll report back.
*edit here for those that might not know. The head gasket was replaced recently but the stumbling issue pre-dates that and the poor starting has appeared a good 120 miles after replacing the head gasket so I don't believe it's related in this instance.
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Last Edit: Jan 18, 2022 23:24:25 GMT by vulgalour
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,087
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Jan 19, 2022 12:52:37 GMT
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Set up the camera to get some footage of the bad starting... started with no bother. Typical. However, I did check the dashpot and it was almost empty. Filled that up and the bogging down seems to have gone away and the car does start very quickly again. It also seems to need less choke than it normally would for today's temperatures, which can't be a bad thing.
Thank you all, I think we figured it out. Now I just need to remind myself to keep track of when the starting/stumbling reappears and see if it correlates with low dashpot oil. If it does, then that gets to the bottom of what I've been thinking was an intermittent problem for the last ten years.
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Jan 19, 2022 21:36:51 GMT
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I remember the issue well, when a fellow Uni student had issues starting his Morris Ital (with 1.7-litre O-series engine) one winter. A quick few squirts of oil in the dashpot soon had him up and running!
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