01alam
Part of things
Posts: 71
|
|
Jan 11, 2018 12:05:58 GMT
|
Hi all,
I have a more technical question and Google only threw up some posts on the Miata MX5 website and not very helpful.
Modern cars almost always sacrifice ride comfort for better handling.
To me, softer suspension set up (springs and shocks) provide a more supple ride (even if it ends up like a boat), but as I have experienced in my Citroen, they tend to roll a bit in the corner.
Whilst I am not looking to modify my Citroen - I am very happy with it as it is, I am interested in knowing what are the draw backs to soft springs / shocks for rutted roads and big anti-roll bars for flatter cornering.
I am guessing (no mechanical knowledge here) that this set up would cause instability whilst cornering on uneven / pothole filled road?
Any reason why (and if there are such set ups, I am happy to be corrected) this set up is not adopted?
Thanks.
|
|
Citroen CX DTR Turbo 2 Citroen Xantia Activa CT Ford Granada Scorpio Volvo 240 SE Volvo C70 Renault Wind
Past... Audi C4 A6 Ford Mondeo Verona LTI TX1 Mazda 5 Mercedes W114 280CE Mercedes C107 450SLC Skoda Yeti
|
|
|
steveg
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,565
|
|
Jan 11, 2018 13:27:51 GMT
|
Achieving a soft ride and having flat cornering are always going to be a compromise. I'm not sure what Citroen you have but having watched 2CV racing despite the body roll they certainly don't suffer from a lack of grip either on the track or on the grass while ovetartaking on the outside. As soon as you fit an anti roll bar not only do you stiffen the suspension slightly but the link between the connected wheels affects how well they keep in contact with the road. If it's small and front wheel drive fitting a rear bar will help control the roll while not affecting grip a great deal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2018 16:16:09 GMT
|
The approach you describe is what Lotus used to take on the Elan and the like, if you are looking at a car with a high COG dive could become a problem though, you do have to get the balance of front to rear bar stiffness right though, get it wrong and you can dial in catastrophic understeer or oversteer.
It's a very complex field with many factors affecting the result, for instance tyres are also important, older narrower taller tyres are not affected much by roll, modern low profiles are far more sensitive, Geometry and compliance are also important particularly if you are after a good ride, it is generally far easier to set a car up to go fast round a smooth track than work well and give a good ride/ handling compromise on the wide variety of public road surfaces and vehicle mass.
|
|
|
|
tristanh
Part of things
Routinely bewildered
Posts: 990
|
|
Jan 11, 2018 16:53:56 GMT
|
You could probably retain the soft spring, and ordinary bars, if you raised the roll centre with the likes of balljoint extenders.
|
|
Whether you believe you can, or you cannot, you're probably right.
|
|
01alam
Part of things
Posts: 71
|
|
Jan 12, 2018 15:16:29 GMT
|
Thanks for all the responses!
|
|
Citroen CX DTR Turbo 2 Citroen Xantia Activa CT Ford Granada Scorpio Volvo 240 SE Volvo C70 Renault Wind
Past... Audi C4 A6 Ford Mondeo Verona LTI TX1 Mazda 5 Mercedes W114 280CE Mercedes C107 450SLC Skoda Yeti
|
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2018 20:26:06 GMT
|
You're basically turning your independent suspension into a solid axle if you go too far, your ride and single bump handling/comfort will become much worse just to give a softer primary ride. Big anti-roll bars also tend to reduce overall grip much for the same reasons.
|
|
|
|
longman
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 506
Club RR Member Number: 3
|
|
Jan 12, 2018 20:34:51 GMT
|
Funnily enough that's where I'm going with the 911 , its lost nearly 200kilo so is pretty light and was fitted with Bilstein ClubSport spec B6 shocks , great on track but it was like a bucking bronco round the lanes.. no fun at all. It has the standard torsion bars and anti roll currently so the easiest option was the shocks , changed them last month to stock Boge items and the car is transformed , next on the list is anti roll bars , up 1mm front and rear , leaving the torsion bars as is
|
|
Paul 98 500 SL 86 911 Carrera/sold 23 Octavia Phev
|
|
ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,197
Club RR Member Number: 170
|
|
Jan 12, 2018 20:40:22 GMT
|
What PhillipM said. It is a game of compromises. Going to better dampers would be a superior alternative but it does then get expensive. KW for example allow you to "almost" have your cake and eat it with their V3s. My 944 Turbo on KWv3s was a nicer ride than my stock S2 on normal suspension but on potholes it was a revelation thanks to the bypass valves in the dampers. Monotube dampers achieve a similar effect as their tendancy to 'lock out' on large bumps is less than what conventional twin tube dampers are. But on any car fitting new genuine dampers tends to make quite a big difference IME and I've fitted a few dampers to my own cars over the years . longman, that is surprising. The 944 guys love the B6 dampers over the other options but that was with the non ClubSport items. I loved my KWv3s but it was easy to like them when I didn't pay for them.
|
|
Last Edit: Jan 12, 2018 20:41:51 GMT by ChasR
|
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2018 22:11:46 GMT
|
FWIW for bumpy lanes we generally try to use as little or no anti-roll bars at all...
|
|
|
|
RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
|
|
Jan 13, 2018 14:19:38 GMT
|
It's quite a complex topic, but to my understanding it essentially comes down to reduced grip and damping difficulties.
Large anti-roll bars can reduce ultimate grip by increasing weight transfer. They're working by trying to lift the inside wheel, not good when the maximum grip will be achieved with the most even loading on the tyres.
They also cause issues with damping, as they're asking the dampers to deal with 2 different spring rates, one in roll and single wheel bump, and a different softer one in full-axle bump and dive/squat. This can make it hard to match the damping rate to the spring rate. This is an issue even if you're not worried about performance, as miss-matched dampers suck for ride quality just as much as performance.
There's also dynamic effects to things like turn-in stability, but I'm a little rusty on those, so I'll let someone else explain them!
Essentially ARB's can be great in moderation as you can get a decent amount of roll-control before their rates get high enough to mess things up noticably, but rely on them too much and the compromises start becoming apparent. As with anything suspension related, it's all a balance between help and hindrance.
On the whole you'll find rally and off road vehicles running little to no anti-roll bars, and when they do it's often for tuning the under/oversteer balance easily rather than to provide any real roll. Fully fledged circuit-racing cars will run what look like stiff bars, but relative to their high spring rates they're actually reasonably soft, and again they're mostly there just as an easy tuning tool for quickly dealing with changes in tracks and conditions. Road cars kind of do exactly what you describe, and use them to kill some roll without having to use spine-jarring spring rates, but there comes a point where it's no longer helping either ride or performance.
|
|
Last Edit: Jan 13, 2018 14:32:49 GMT by RobinJI
|
|