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There's a few ways cars can be found entertaining/engaging to drive, but to my mind it boils down to two basics.
A well set up chassis with good handling and balance which gives confidence to throw into corners and doesn't necessarily have a great deal of power upstream of the driving wheels.
The other is a less agile chassis with that bit more power than it can comfortably handle to keep you awake.
I lean toward option 2 in my thinking, but what's the collectives thoughts?
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For me a decent chassis, but a good handling is subjective to the person driving it.
keeping a car without much power on the boil is hillarious fun,
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Take the Next slot right coming up on the left.
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MiataMark
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,961
Club RR Member Number: 29
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Interesting, with my MX5 when I first got it on 14" wheels and worn tyres it was easy to provoke into over-steer, now with 15" wheels and new(ish) tyres on public roads you can't get it to easily slide but the overall handling is much better.
So for fun option 2 but for 90% of the time option 1. I'd rather leave option 2 for track days.
What I need to sort out is 14" wheels and good tyres as that's probably the best compromise with standard power.
*I know a standard 1.6 MX5 isn't exactly powerful but it's more about the relation between power and road-holding.
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1990 Mazda MX-52012 BMW 118i (170bhp) - white appliance 2011 Land Rover Freelander 2 TD4 2003 Land Rover Discovery II TD52007 Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon JTDm
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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Too much power never gets old .
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I've got a pal with a 550bhp YB in his Mk2 Escort RS2000 and I can concur - option 2. It's a hoot and even blows superbikes into the weeds. Scares me silly too though
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96 E320 W210 Wafter - on 18" split Mono's - Sold :-( 10 Kia Ceed Sportwagon - Our new daily 03 Import Forester STi - Sold 98 W140 CL500 AMG - Brutal weekend bruiser! Sold :-( 99 E240 S210 Barge - Now sold 02 Accord 2.0SE - wife's old daily - gone in PX 88 P100 2.9efi Custom - Sold
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Since I'm far from being a driving god, it will have to be option 1 for me but being honest I'd prefer option number 2.
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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Sept 4, 2017 10:32:37 GMT
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id rather drive a 998cc at ten tenths than 2 ltr turbo with 500 bhp at half my ability so option 1 for me!
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Mr S
Posted a lot
10-4 Good buddy.
Posts: 2,654
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Sept 4, 2017 10:41:58 GMT
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Too much power is never enough!
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Suzuki GSXR1000 K2 BMW R1150GS BMW K1200RS Chevy K5 Blazer Chevy Suburban LT Jaguar XKR
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Sept 4, 2017 11:06:01 GMT
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always number 1, 2 is utterly pointless. 3, a bloody good chassis AND lots of power
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Sept 4, 2017 16:51:05 GMT
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^^^ What Welshpug said
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Sept 4, 2017 16:51:29 GMT
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i've owned the arch bishop of option 2's for the last 20 years (astra gte 16v) it was fun back in the 1980s because the power would outweigh any misgivings, but now you have 2.0 turbo diesel family cars that will match them in a sprint and have more thorough suspension technology than a 1970s lotus. needs a bit more thought put into it
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Sept 4, 2017 22:12:40 GMT
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Interesting question, I'm curious to see how others feel about it Having had in the past (and recently again got) examples of "option 3" motors (silly power, excellent predictable handling, often restricted to 155 mph !) I find "Option 1" more fun With well set up low powered cars I find I can push them near their limits in the corners and braking, often surprising a lot of "better" cars - all within the speed limits To push "Option 3" cars, I need to go on the track or to the continent Motorbikes have a different "vibe", for them I'd propably go for option 2 (but I'm happy with any !)
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Last Edit: Sept 4, 2017 22:18:23 GMT by nomad
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Back in the early 90s Performance Bikes did a feature asking the same question. Think they big bored a GSXR750 and Ohlins-ed another. Think they concluded handling to be preferable on that occasion.
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Having had in the past (and recently again got) examples of "option 3" motors (silly power, excellent predictable handling, often restricted to 155 mph !) Hang on. Have I missed something?
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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My Volksrod is a standard Beetle chassis with a 12" extension on the front.
It has 12" wide tyres on the rear and 4" wide tyres on the front.
Hanging off the back is a turbocharged gearbox eater air cooled boxer engine. The turbo lag and design of the intake and ignition means that there is zero progression when the power comes on, at which point it goes like a cat with its tail on fire, and changes direction randomly as the chassis twists when the power hits.
The turbo system is a draw through carb setup, with about 2 feet of intake. On boost you are driving around with, quite literally, a pipe bomb on the back containing a stoic mix of air and fuel, pressurised to 15psi. A dropped valve, early spark, a touch of over boost or pinking can and will cause a BIG manifold detonation.
The steering bumpsteers like hell.
There are no anti roll bars (they cause dangerous under steer because if the lack of weight over the front wheels).
The brakes just stop the wheels spinning, not the car from moving.
Hard cornering will give you understeer, oversteer, and four wheel drift in quick succession.
The suspension is so low so as to be more or less useless.
It is cramped inside.
There are zero things to save you in a crash aside from a token effort set of seatbelts.
To drive it, you don't just have to be awake, you have to possess the reflexes of a well trained Jedi on speed if you want to keep it straight.
Being in that car is like being trapped naked in a phone box with a large panicking gorilla.
But if it drove well, handled well and behaved, it just wouldn't be the same. The soul, the character, the whole point of the car would be removed.
(In my defence, it was built with drag racing in mind. On a good day, it can do straight lines well).
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Last Edit: Sept 5, 2017 6:52:36 GMT by fad
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Option 1 is more fun than option 2 if you know how to drive well. Option 2 is simply fun, but potentially dangerous (maybe that is why it is fun). Obviously option 1 + 2 is the best, so option 3 it is.
I currently have Option 2, but I'm aiming to make it more like option 3 as it is only amusing for a while.
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I have owned cars in all 3 varieties, mostly in my earlier years, option 2 prevailed and I risked life and limb on a daily basis in cars that went like stink and handled like a pig on ice skates (I was a big drag racing fan as well, so cornering was optional at best)
These days I have come around to James Hunt's viewpoint, for the last few years of his life, his daily drive was an Austin A35 VAN which he claimed he could have as much fun in and never break a speed limit!
My ethos is similar, nowadays with 5 grown kids and a house and wife, my budget doesn't stretch to stupid horsepower, so if I want to go fast (and I most emphatically DO!)I have to do it by keeping up momentum. My current ride, the Carledo, puts out only a reasonable 135bhp but that is enough to propel it's 760kg at a good rate of knots. Careful attention to chassis, suspension and brakes is what makes it entertaining to drive as I don't slow down for corners all that much. It also doesn't scare me sh*tless every time I open it up like some of my earlier efforts did and some of my customers cars still do (A certain TVR 350i comes to mind) As I get older, I seem to be becoming more aware of my own mortality!
So it's option 1 for me!
Steve
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Last Edit: Sept 5, 2017 8:56:02 GMT by carledo
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Sept 6, 2017 21:22:10 GMT
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When I got into my Beetle after not driving it for four years the appalling handling scared the curse word out of me with only 40hp. I got used to it relatively quickly and remembered how to drive it quickly and effectively. In the next two weeks it's getting 4 times the original horsepower and no other changes. The handling will still be marginal but it'll be fast in a straight line, so option 2 by default!
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim 1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started. 1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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When I got into my Beetle after not driving it for four years the appalling handling scared the curse word out of me with only 40hp. I got used to it relatively quickly and remembered how to drive it quickly and effectively. In the next two weeks it's getting 4 times the original horsepower and no other changes. The handling will still be marginal but it'll be fast in a straight line, so option 2 by default! Whatchya having done?
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