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Aug 12, 2017 23:42:53 GMT
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As someone who's been messing with aircooled VW's for over 20 years, I'm no stranger to the sparky end of a MIG welder. I consider myself to be pretty decent at repairing panels and there's not much that bothers me about cutting out a hit of grot and welding in fresh steel.
However, a friend of my wife has asked if I'll patch up the sills on her Ka. From having a go at my wife's Ka many years ago I remember that the metal is tinfoil-thickness and they rot like 1970s Italian saloons... Which got me on to thinking, which is always dangerous on a Saturday night! Could the sill repair panels be bonded on? I've not seen the car in question so I don't know how bad the rot is...
I see there being a few advantages. There would be a lot of surface area to bond to, leading to a strong repair. The repair would be sealed all round, so little chance of future water ingress. There's less chance of setting fire to the wiring loom, which I seem to remember runs inside one of the sills. The inside of the panel and the existing car could be etch primed to protect it and not have the paint burn off as it would with a welded repair, not to mention the lack of distortion. The disadvantage that I'veread about is that the adhesives haven't been proven for structural repairs - more accurately they've not really been tested for it, so no-one will say if it will actually work.
I'm not proposing cutting the old sill out and gluing the new one in place along a lapped joint, rather adding the new one over the top of the original to add strength to the existing panel and seal it up at the same time. Nor am I thinking of using NoNails or anything like that, more like a 3M adhesive that's designed for automotive use.
What do people think? Horrendous bodge? Worth experimenting with? No reason why it shouldn't work? Opinions please!
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim 1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started. 1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Aug 12, 2017 23:55:36 GMT
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If someone suggested welding a panel over rot you would (should) kick the straight in the balls.
How many times have you found panels tacked then covered over with seam sealer? How hard and loud do you swear and curse the person who did it? (I know panel bond is different to seam sealer).
Now go outside, and think about what you've done.
(Some cars are bonded together I'm almost positive, lotus maybe? But still... If you glue panels over rot best you learn to kick yourself in the nuts...)
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Last Edit: Aug 13, 2017 9:11:47 GMT by fad
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Dave, I knew I could rely on you not to mince your words! I don't think I explained it properly (reading it back it does look dodgy as f8ck!) - I'd grind and trim back the rusty bits to clean metal, use kurust and then etch prime, so no different to a "proper" repair. If it was something more substantial I'd cut the sill out entirely and let in the whole repair panel or just weld smaller patches if there aren't too many of them to grind down afterwards. The bonding question was more to avoid the use of the welder on paper thin Ford tin. My thinking is that doing it this way will actually result in a stronger repair - as you say, Lotus use bonded sections and they're phenomenally strong - the metal gives way before the adhesive.
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim 1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started. 1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Always going to be stronger gluing a double skin on there. Just needs to be neat enough the MOT man can't tell I guess.
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Bonded panels in vehicle production has now been in the market for a few decades and with the advancement of bonding technology is becoming a wider used process especially on premium brands where alloy is now used to form bodyshells along with the outer panels.
When vehicles are built they go through a long research process, are then prototyped and a number of models are built pre production in order to analyse not only that the process of production is correct but that the vehicle performs has it should along with an intensive testing schedule of how the vehicle performs in all the environments & conditions that it will operate in - part of that testing is destructive - physically - such as impact testing to ensure that the vehicles structure protects the occupants - along with many other things vehicles are built to absorb energy when involved in an impact collision with panels deforming in order to absorb the impacts energy in a calculated process - how panels are fixed / welded to a bodyshell are all taken into account when this research is undertaken. This is one of the reasons why for the last 15 / 20 years cars have been built from lighter / thinner materials - there is significant impact protection within the bodyshell that all forms the integral construction with welds / fastenings put at critical points so that if impact in that area occurs the energy is absorbed by the vehicle and the risk mitigated to the occupants.
So by bonding the panel instead of it being welded ? neat idea but what you are doing is changing the structure of the vehicle and how it would act if impacted in that area - the sill would normally deform / split at weld points and absorb the energy has designed but with a bonded panel it will deform and continue to transfer the impact energy into the vehicle rather than splitting on weld points - it's an important factor - likewise when owners think that they are making a better job than that of when the vehicle was first manufactured by putting additional welds in place when replacing panels.
It may all appear unimportant but when you have seen vehicles physically impact tested - inspected them both before & after the impact you can begin to understand why vehicles are built like there are today - it's up to you should you take the risk - what's the chance of someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time with a wrongly fitted structural panel to the vehicle ??
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Last Edit: Aug 13, 2017 7:01:26 GMT by Deleted
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my advise stay away from and let someone else fix it , prob 5x more rust hiding behind what you can see and they'l think they're doing you proud paying you a fiver
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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froggy
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,099
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If it's got to the stage of where the sills need work there's a good chance the inner panel around the fuel filler neck is cabbaged as well and the rear inner 1/4 which both come into the prescribed areas for seat belt mounts . Front chassis rails inner wings around the subframe mounts too . I've seen some really neat bodging with seam sealer . The only ones I see that aren't rot boxes are very late 06 07 cars the earlier ones are patched up and on borrowed time now
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Dave, I knew I could rely on you not to mince your words! I don't think I explained it properly (reading it back it does look dodgy as f8ck!) - I'd grind and trim back the rusty bits to clean metal, use kurust and then etch prime, so no different to a "proper" repair. If it was something more substantial I'd cut the sill out entirely and let in the whole repair panel or just weld smaller patches if there aren't too many of them to grind down afterwards. The bonding question was more to avoid the use of the welder on paper thin Ford tin. My thinking is that doing it this way will actually result in a stronger repair - as you say, Lotus use bonded sections and they're phenomenally strong - the metal gives way before the adhesive. With you now. On the one hand, as said very concisely, it changes the structure. However, very rarely is a resto done that doesn't change it somewhere with different gauges of steel in repro panels, different welds, repairs supposed to be having made with seam welds not spot welds to pass not (regardless of how it left the factory)... On the other hand, worse things happen at sea. Is the car worth trying to save?
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Is the car worth trying to save? I don't know, I've not seen it yet! Knowing the owner I suspect that the rest of it is pretty tidy, she's not the sort to drive an absolute sh1tter! Froggy and Stevo, I know what you mean about there being more rot hidden, so I will make it clear to the owner that if it looks worse on initial inspection it might be time to bite the bullet and replace the car. GN, thank you for your reply, makes perfect sense!
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim 1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started. 1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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Aug 14, 2017 21:45:23 GMT
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If you head off to Youtube you can find all sorts of product validation documents that show the strenght of the adhesive versus conventional weld. Granted they are all commericals and put things in a best light for the adhesive.
That said, who is to say that your plug welds will be of the same design specifications as the factory spot-welds? Most people I see restore cars tend to use fewer welds than the factory did and they have no process to verify the quality fo what they do.
Another point in favour of the adhesive is that it will not promote rust in the seam, When doing a plug weld, each weld is a "Rust seed" regardless of what you do to prevent it. Just the nature of being molten steel in an oxygen rich world. Even if your welds are perfect, who is to say they stay that way five years later?
If using adhesives, be aware that the "Bond line" or thickness of adhesive is a critical parameter. Moisture and temperature might also be, so read the data sheet.
If you do this, please post results since I consider it to be an evolving technology vis-a-vis the DIY old car hobby.
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Bonding is wide spread across certain makes of vehicles BMW for instance method of repair is bond and rivet, not conventional pop rivets i might add
modern repair method on a BMW
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Haha try that with the pants repro panels available for VW Bugs! lol!
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Aug 16, 2017 20:20:40 GMT
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KA panels are no thinner than most moderns, I have patched a few, you need to go careful on butt joints and get it clean first but it is not that difficult.
bonding could be fine but the only proven route is like for like as the MOT requirements prescribe.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:45:46 GMT
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I've finely got to see the car - drivers side is fine, just a little patch so no problem there. Passenger side is holed pretty much from front to back but only at the very bottom and the inner sill is still in factory grey so I'll be getting busy with the welder in a couple of weeks time. I'll leave bonding for another project!
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1968 Cal Look Beetle - 2007cc motor - 14.45@93mph in full street trim 1970-ish Karmann Beetle cabriolet - project soon to be re-started. 1986 Scirocco - big plans, one day!
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