eternaloptimist
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May 20, 2017 10:48:47 GMT
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It's many years since I did any calculations on the bending of beams, and I'm too mean to pay a structural engineer!
I've got a thread going in readers other mods about the changes I'm making in my garage. One thing I'm thinking about is putting in an I beam and using a chain hoist rather than a folding engine crane that's forever in the way.
I want the beam to span 5.3m. It will rest on 100mm supports. If more support would help, I could add a prop at one end of the beam where it's against the wall, at the other end it's across the doorway, I could weld something to the steel lintel if that would help/be necessary. The other end will be resting on blockwork.
I would use the hoist to lift engines/boxes, so max load would be no more than 500kg or so.
What size beam will I need? A 100mm depth beam would mean I wouldn't need to change anything else - more than that and I will need to alter the position of the lighting. Would I get away with 100mm or would I end up with something banana shaped?
It would have been MUCH easier to have done all this when I built the garage, but that was in 2003, and I didn't thank about it as much as I should have done. Another 500mm of headroom and I could have had a lift in there, another 1000mm depth, I would have had enough space for the US Wagon I hanker after etc etc etc.
Anyone out there want to give me a view as to what I can get away with?
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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May 20, 2017 13:18:36 GMT
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100mm doesn't sound up to it if for instance you were using it in the middle of its span . Also doesn't sound to good with it resting across the middle of the door . I'm wondering if you could bolt some more steel in to brace it and just use the block and tackle towards one end where its load will be transfered to the walls more ?
Would it be easier to put a new steel in somewhere above where you would be doing the lifting ? Something like a 6 or 8" beam beam ?
And I'm buggered if i can remember all that loading stuff an shear this that and the other from college either !
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,834
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Bending of I beams...stealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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May 20, 2017 14:21:56 GMT
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I did something similar for my mate. Only had space for a 100mm beam which aren't strong enough so I made some removable legs (end had a U with a locating peg that fitted into beam). Worked bang on.
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eternaloptimist
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May 20, 2017 14:44:25 GMT
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100mm doesn't sound up to it if for instance you were using it in the middle of its span . Also doesn't sound to good with it resting across the middle of the door . I'm wondering if you could bolt some more steel in to brace it and just use the block and tackle towards one end where its load will be transfered to the walls more ? Would it be easier to put a new steel in somewhere above where you would be doing the lifting ? Something like a 6 or 8" beam beam ? And I'm buggered if i can remember all that loading stuff an shear this that and the other from college either ! I won't be using it in the middle of the span - probably 1500 to 2000 mm from the end. The garage is 10m wide X 5m deep roughly - 3 bays wide. It's big, but not big enough, and I'm trying to avoid having an engine crane/hoist thing, even though they fold up, it's taking up floor space. If I can put a beam in, then that's one less thing to fall over. The steel lintels over the door do the same job holding the roof up as the wall does opposite the door, not really worried about them to be honest. Any new steel that goes in has to go between the door and the opposite wall, not across the width of the garage where it would either be resting on the trusses or interfering with them. |
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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eternaloptimist
Posted a lot
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Posts: 2,578
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May 20, 2017 14:50:21 GMT
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I did something similar for my mate. Only had space for a 100mm beam which aren't strong enough so I made some removable legs (end had a U with a locating peg that fitted into beam). Worked bang on. I don't want to have to put any props in - they're guaranteed to get in the way and it's another thing to find floor space for. I don't mind permanently fixing a prop against the wall to give the wall end of the beam some extra support, and I could put a cross beam across the pillars either side of the door to give the door end some extra support. The only way I could get anything deeper than a 100 mm beam in place is to birds mouth the ends. Even then, I'm not sure if there's enough clearance to put it in place without stripping the roof. IIRC, it's McCauley's method for calculating the deflection of beams that I need..... |
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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May 20, 2017 15:04:45 GMT
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100m beam with alength over 5 metres is still gong to flex no matter of your only 1.5m away from the end . Is it a flat roof or could you traingulate it above , say at 2 metres out so some of the load is spread sideways to other walls rather than all along its overly long length ?
I'm thinking about old industrial buildings as a thought if you have been in any . All the roof structure made of various bits of iron bolted together to spread the weight .
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Bending of I beams...Dez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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May 20, 2017 15:32:05 GMT
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The rough rule of thumb I was tought is a 6" beam is good up to 16' , 8" beam for over that but I don't know what the upper limit is as I've never had to do over 24'.
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eternaloptimist
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May 20, 2017 16:52:21 GMT
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Appreciate the input here, thanks 100m beam with alength over 5 metres is still gong to flex no matter of your only 1.5m away from the end . Is it a flat roof or could you traingulate it above , say at 2 metres out so some of the load is spread sideways to other walls rather than all along its overly long length ? I'm thinking about old industrial buildings as a thought if you have been in any . All the roof structure made of various bits of iron bolted together to spread the weight . It's a pitched roof - concrete tiles - 33 degrees on the front face, 16 degrees on the back face. The trusses are factory made so there's a load of timber in the roof space and so I'd struggle to get anything up there. |
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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eternaloptimist
Posted a lot
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May 20, 2017 16:57:31 GMT
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The rough rule of thumb I was tought is a 6" beam is good up to 16' , 8" beam for over that but I don't know what the upper limit is as I've never had to do over 24'. 5.3m is not far off 16'. I might be able to take a notch out of a 150mm beam and prop the other end with a column against the wall, I'd be struggling to get a 150mm beam across both plates. Come on, there must be a civil engineer doing their finals who can do the maths? I want to put as little steel as I can up there. |
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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froggy
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May 20, 2017 20:51:22 GMT
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I pull my fully dressed 1uzfe with twin turbos and r154 supra box out off a pair of 6x3 timber over a 4.8 metre span and I have a portable frame at work with a 100mm I beam 3.6m that has pulled engined out of 7.5 Ton wagons without bending  150mm is going to good enough for pretty much anything you will be doing |
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May 20, 2017 20:57:45 GMT
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I would be more concerned about the potential to put maybe 300kg spot load onto the lintel above the door. Could you use another steel to spread the load over a greater length of the lintel.
TBH deflection for this doesn't really matter. You aren't going to bend it lifting normal car stuff.
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eternaloptimist
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May 20, 2017 23:18:41 GMT
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I would be more concerned about the potential to put maybe 300kg spot load onto the lintel above the door. Could you use another steel to spread the load over a greater length of the lintel. TBH deflection for this doesn't really matter. You aren't going to bend it lifting normal car stuff. I have a pillar either side of the door - I could span the pillars with a 100mm beam which would sit alongside the lintle (which is 150mm deep) so that the I beam I want to hang the hoist from could rest on that as well as the wall plate (which is on top of the lintle) |
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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eternaloptimist
Posted a lot
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May 20, 2017 23:21:52 GMT
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I pull my fully dressed 1uzfe with twin turbos and r154 supra box out off a pair of 6x3 timber over a 4.8 metre span and I have a portable frame at work with a 100mm I beam 3.6m that has pulled engined out of 7.5 Ton wagons without bending 150mm is going to good enough for pretty much anything you will be doing Thanks - I want to use a single steel that I can run a hoist along so (a) I can move it out of the way and (b) so I can get it to the right position for what I want to lift. I can't easily get a 150 mm steel in the space I've got available unless I notch it at the ends. |
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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I think I'd be getting and engine crane.
or borrowing one, how often do you really use it?
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eternaloptimist
Posted a lot
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Posts: 2,578
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I think I'd be getting and engine crane. or borrowing one, how often do you really use it? Where's the fun in solving the problem that easily?  |
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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means you can crack on with the engine swap and stop procrastinating  |
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froggy
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May 21, 2017 10:42:10 GMT
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I pull my fully dressed 1uzfe with twin turbos and r154 supra box out off a pair of 6x3 timber over a 4.8 metre span and I have a portable frame at work with a 100mm I beam 3.6m that has pulled engined out of 7.5 Ton wagons without bending 150mm is going to good enough for pretty much anything you will be doing Thanks - I want to use a single steel that I can run a hoist along so (a) I can move it out of the way and (b) so I can get it to the right position for what I want to lift. I can't easily get a 150 mm steel in the space I've got available unless I notch it at the ends. The elevtric hoist was a £50 Aldi job but hasn't killed me yet and it's ideal for me as I usually have to get the lump out on my own so I can use the remote and wheel the car out of the way at the same time . Just need to figure out where to put it but as I'm using the roof I just move it around to where I need it and if I ever get round to it il add a few vertical braces to tie the joists to the apex where I usually use the hoist and stop it bouncing . If it's going to be in and out a few times like I had to it's nice to just lift it and push the car out of the way rather than having a crane taking up floor space |
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Last Edit: May 21, 2017 10:44:55 GMT by froggy
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eternaloptimist
Posted a lot
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May 21, 2017 17:51:59 GMT
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means you can crack on with the engine swap and stop procrastinating It doesn't - I'm a fair way off being ready to drop the lump in - I'm trying to think ahead now while I'm refitting the garage. |
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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Depending on skillset money etc could you not just make a A frame which sits inside the walls out if something stronger?
Or buy a wheeled one. We have a sealey one at work with a 500kg block and tackle on.
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