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Jan 10, 2017 20:55:22 GMT
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Hello all, I am doing some major tinkering on my daily and sorting out things that have niggled me for a while. Anyway one of the things has involed me taking off my gearbox and whilst I have it off I am going to check my clutch and see if it wants swopping out. My daily is a focus 1800 tdci with 150k on the clock, so my question, my flywheel is a dual mass flywheel and from what I have read it is fairly staight forward swop to make it a solid flywheel, so do I replace it like for like or swop it out? What would be the pros and cons? And has anyone done this before on any motors? Cheers Dan
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Jan 10, 2017 21:27:01 GMT
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Personally with my sencible head id say does it even need changing???
Is it rattling and knocking???
If so I would hit up the well established Ford rorums and talk to folk thats walked the walk... ( I'm a vag man)
My cheepskate fix it or fukit head says weld the flywheel up fit a preassure plate and drive the fekker...
Hope this helps.....
Edit cos I'm a dyslexic curse word...
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Last Edit: Jan 10, 2017 21:30:35 GMT by usedabused
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Jan 10, 2017 22:35:43 GMT
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If you fit a smf it will be a little noisier and you will get some gear rattle.
the method used to check the dmf is to measure the free play between the two masses, can't remember the measurement but the ford forums will be able to advise you.
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Jan 10, 2017 23:28:49 GMT
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Bin it and live with a bit a extra gear noise/rattle from a solid , it will eventually go anyway so do it while you are in there .I replace dmf's weekly and they arn't cheap , escorts never had them and they last for ever , i still run one !
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Dual mass flywheelChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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There is a risk of lowering the gearbox life however.
Common rail dervs are a bit harsher on the drivetrain than their indirect counterparts.
Personally, I'd be tempted to leave it. Unless you drive purely in town or labour the engine for an eternity IME they don't go as much as people think.
While my cars are petrol I have only ever had to change one flywheel. The list is as follows:
Ford Mondeo 2.0 LPG ; 77k to 380k Same as above : 113k to 210k Mondeo 3.0 V6 Manual : 112k to 260k Alfa 147 JTD : 72k to 100k ; No flywheel needed Mondeo 1.8 LPG : 133k to 325k. I did have to change the flywheel on this. However, it was the roughest car out of the above when we bought it.
OTOH maybe I've been mega lucky.
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Chas , i get where you're coming from .The more powerful the engine the more problems you will have but to the focus is old tech and quite low power so for a fit and forget tight rs fix i would go solid if it was mine . But for a better / quieter drive fit a dmf .
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Last Edit: Jan 11, 2017 1:08:52 GMT by Deleted
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Cheers for all the words guys. Managed to get some time to give the whole set a once over tonight, clutch is pretty worn but not slipping but I will change that anyway whilst my car is spewing its guts onto my drive. The original symptom was a knocking noise, but only when at a stop in neutral, put some pressure on the clutch and its gone. During driving there is no noise. My first thought was the slave bearing as its the only time it has no load on it if I am right. The MTX75 gear boxes in these are pretty hard from what I have found so I guess its up to me if I want a quiter drive or not. Will see if I can find out what play is acceptable on the DMF. Dan
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Jan 11, 2017 10:00:23 GMT
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If you have a knock at idle at the gearbox end and it goes with clutch pedal then it's pretty safe to say it's DMF.
check side to side slop (that gives the rattle) and also rock the two parts together on the axis, I think it is the parts touching due to excessive rock that gives the knock, I recently changed my long overdue mondeo tdci dmf and it was knocking very loudly at idle, side to side slop was fine, rock on the axis wasnt and the two parts were touching rivet heads internally.
I replaced it with a delivery mileage dmf i bought years ago, but had an smf kit in a box ready to go on too, but chose the dmf in the end i think because there is a slight whine in 5th on my gearbox and i didnt want any other factors affecting it.
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Jan 11, 2017 22:19:53 GMT
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If you have a knock at idle at the gearbox end and it goes with clutch pedal then it's pretty safe to say it's DMF. check side to side slop (that gives the rattle) and also rock the two parts together on the axis, I think it is the parts touching due to excessive rock that gives the knock, I recently changed my long overdue mondeo tdci dmf and it was knocking very loudly at idle, side to side slop was fine, rock on the axis wasnt and the two parts were touching rivet heads internally. I replaced it with a delivery mileage dmf i bought years ago, but had an smf kit in a box ready to go on too, but chose the dmf in the end i think because there is a slight whine in 5th on my gearbox and i didnt want any other factors affecting it. Cool cheers for that, think I am swaying toward the SMF, but still going to have to put my hand in my pocket for that kit too. Dan
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Jan 12, 2017 10:33:59 GMT
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Focus isnt as torquey or as heavy as the mondeo so i'd have no qualms about putting an smf in one.
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Jan 14, 2017 22:45:17 GMT
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Something that I have not noticed even though it stares you right in the face everytime you look at it. A dual mass flywheel has two parts connected via springs and a solid clutch plate and a single mass flywheel is a solid flywheel with a clutch plate in two parts connected with springs. So what is the difference? Dan
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Jan 14, 2017 23:22:57 GMT
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_mass_flywheelModern diesels have a lot of torque, so the old smf and clutch springs were seen to be not up to the job for NVH (noise vibrations harshness) as well as the gearboxes taking a pounding.
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Last Edit: Jan 14, 2017 23:24:53 GMT by sausage
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njw
Part of things
Posts: 226
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Jan 14, 2017 23:44:37 GMT
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My personal opinion, if you're dmf is fooked then fit another dmf, if the original has lasted 150k then is there any reason not to fit another? As said, they absorb a lot of drive-line shock that would otherwise be transferred to the clutch and/or gearbox. Me and a mate did a smf conversion on a Freelander a few years ago and had an absolute nightmare with it, for starters we couldn't get the clutch to dis-engage after fitting it and after much head scratching and a bit of measuring it turned the new smf was slightly too thick and had to be machined down (after we'd stripped everything back down of course!). After we'd got everything back together and working the bite on the clutch was stupidly sharp, it just wasn't nice to drive IMO although the guy who owned it used it to tow his caravan the week after and said it was great...
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Jan 14, 2017 23:46:47 GMT
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Ah ok, so its a difference in springs in its simplest form. Would fitting an uprated clutch (in smf setup) with stiffer springs combat some of the vibrations? Only really started looking into this whole dmf/smf craic about a week ago so I am just soaking up all the info I can find. Dan
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That would be like fitting stiffer race springs on an offroader, what would the results be on a washboard dirt road? Not pleasant.
If I remember right some (not all) who did smf on mondeo found the front crank pulley disintegrated in short order, the flywheel mount on the crank shattered and the gearboxes didnt like the abuse as well, now some of that could be down to numpties over tightening the flywheel bolts, the crank pulleys being already nearly shot and the same with the gearboxes, but personally I can see that without the damping effect of the dmf on the engine pulses these sort of outcomes are very possible.
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Jan 15, 2017 11:13:46 GMT
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what I've noticed on psa engines is that the later dmf engines run a solid aux pulley and clutched alternator pulleys, the dmf does a big amount of damping.
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Jan 15, 2017 17:10:02 GMT
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what I've noticed on psa engines is that the later dmf engines run a solid aux pulley and clutched alternator pulleys, the dmf does a big amount of damping.s Most dmf applications are are different to smf front the front end, but usually this is because the primary mass is lower with a dmf and the crank torsionals therefore higher needing a more capable front end system, the smf is typically heavier so works Ok with the dmf set up, the engine software is also different, both for dmf protection, and smooth driving.
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Last Edit: Jan 15, 2017 17:10:26 GMT by kevins
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ChasR
RR Helper
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Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Dual mass flywheelChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Jan 15, 2017 17:55:31 GMT
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What I do remember was a B5.5 Passat PD 110 (I think?) TDI going to a single mass flywheel. I think his gearbox lasted but the rattle was unbelievable ; some people thought the engine or car was broken! It's not the only case of extra noise coming about. Considering that is a similar power level to a TDCI Focus and the Focus is common rail in the TDCI platform I'd bear that in mind.
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Jan 15, 2017 20:07:23 GMT
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Thanks guys, after some thought I think I will stick with a dmf set up, glad I didn't buy the kit spur of the monent the other night! My one thought was about keeping costs down when I comes to change them again, but as has been said, its taken 10yrs/150k mls of abuse so far and if a) I still have the car in 10yrs and b) it takes another 150k before replacing then I think I can spend the extra money on the old girl, she will have deserved it. If I can get away with it too I might try and get her mapped at some point so the dmf might take the extra torque and power better I imagine.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:12:48 GMT
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What I do remember was a B5.5 Passat PD 110 (I think?) TDI going to a single mass flywheel. I think his gearbox lasted but the rattle was unbelievable ; some people thought the engine or car was broken! It's not the only case of extra noise coming about. Considering that is a similar power level to a TDCI Focus and the Focus is common rail in the TDCI platform I'd bear that in mind. yup, thats what the CI stands for, there is a commonrail version of the old TDDI endura 1.8 as well as the 2.0 puma which was later replaced by a dw10 and there's the troublesome DV6.
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