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Oct 15, 2016 19:26:08 GMT
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Hi all, I bought a 1998 BMW E39 528i se (manual) to fill in for daily duties until I can get my saab on the road. I drove it to the shops tonight and noticed a bit of clunking when I parked back up. So I popped the bonnet and after a very quick inspection (dark / rain) have concluded that it sounds like a bag of spanners without anything glaringly visible being the cause. It sort of sounds like a bearing has gone on something and something is rotating and flapping about. My first thoughts about where I start having a poke about tomorrow is to give everything a wiggle about with the engine off. Then maybe take the belts off everything ( waterpump / alternator etc), briefly run it and see if its still noisy. My question to you fine retro rides folk is: Is this a really stupid thing to do ? I don't want to sin, so here's a piccy of the poorly thing.    |
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,192
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Oct 15, 2016 21:21:21 GMT
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IMO, taking the belts off is a good idea but don't run it for too long! A lack of waterpump can be potentially fatal  . I would also check the pulleys. One pulley I would not overlook besides the water pump is the alternator pulley. If it has a one way clutch these can cause a right racket if they seized up and can be easily dismissed as the pulley will not move around much. I've had a cushioned pulley go on a Clio before and then a one way clutch seize up on a MkIII Mondeo; on both I thought I initially had serious engine trouble! Do you have a video of it? |
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Oct 15, 2016 22:05:43 GMT
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Possibly relevant  I had ongoing problems with an E36 328i - turned out the viscuous hub on the cooling fan was on it's way out. It *should* lock up when the motor gets warm - mine never did  It *should" also freewheel happily when cold - mine didn't It's easy to check but advise you read up so you find the safest way to do it ...  |
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i don't think viscous coupling is going to make much sound at all, your fan will be going around at engine speed if your coupling is sticky but its not going to make a noise. if you get a sound from that general direction youd do better to turn the engine off and give one of the fan blades a tug up/back/forward/down and see if you get any movement there, in which case it would be your water pump bearings.
on my 4x4 when my pump goes it seriously sounds like many marbles in a small washing machine.
on an old e46 BMW i had it made a high pitched squealing, bit like a fan belt sound but then would howl a bit too..
next thing id check is to see if you can pin point the sound down to a broken part under the rocker cover
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,192
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Being an M52 engine they can get clattery at the top end if a few oil changes have been skipped. They seem to be pretty intolerant to a lack of oil changes. However the oil filler cap would not look pleasant either! i don't think viscous coupling is going to make much sound at all, your fan will be going around at engine speed if your coupling is sticky but its not going to make a noise. if you get a sound from that general direction youd do better to turn the engine off and give one of the fan blades a tug up/back/forward/down and see if you get any movement there, in which case it would be your water pump bearings. on my 4x4 when my pump goes it seriously sounds like many marbles in a small washing machine. on an old e46 BMW i had it made a high pitched squealing, bit like a fan belt sound but then would howl a bit too.. next thing id check is to see if you can pin point the sound down to a broken part under the rocker cover They say they need to lock up but I have rarely seen it happen! The coupling I removed from my M3 which was for an M50/M52 engined BMW never locked up and was reasonably new. Its replacement (albeit for the M3 this time) doesn't lockup either! It spins quicker when things get warm but it never seems to lockup. It looks to be a Hella/Behr part as well. |
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Last Edit: Oct 16, 2016 5:52:13 GMT by ChasR
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Thanks for the replies. Very much appreciated. So it looks like the way forward is to go for it, but carefully. Sorry for the short reply, I've got to try and sort this out today somehow for work tomorrow, so I best get cracking on it. Will try to get a video up of whats going on, fingers crossed its a bolt on bit and not a dead engine. Funny enough I bought a new viscous fan clutch the other day, to try and help the cooling, will be amazing if it is the problem.  |
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Just had a pull about in there and nothing seems unusual, the belts are tight etc. The viscous fan seems to be ok, it feels like turning it through treacle as I beleive it should. Inside the oil filler cap looks ok. Funny enough, for the first second of starting it up, it didn't make a noise. Then started making a racket short after. I've taken a short, but sh*t video. Hopefully its enough to show whats going on. Thanks again for all comments.
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Oct 16, 2016 23:07:48 GMT
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Being an M52 engine they can get clattery at the top end if a few oil changes have been skipped. They seem to be pretty intolerant to a lack of oil changes. However the oil filler cap would not look pleasant either! i don't think viscous coupling is going to make much sound at all, your fan will be going around at engine speed if your coupling is sticky but its not going to make a noise. if you get a sound from that general direction youd do better to turn the engine off and give one of the fan blades a tug up/back/forward/down and see if you get any movement there, in which case it would be your water pump bearings. on my 4x4 when my pump goes it seriously sounds like many marbles in a small washing machine. on an old e46 BMW i had it made a high pitched squealing, bit like a fan belt sound but then would howl a bit too.. next thing id check is to see if you can pin point the sound down to a broken part under the rocker cover They say they need to lock up but I have rarely seen it happen! The coupling I removed from my M3 which was for an M50/M52 engined BMW never locked up and was reasonably new. Its replacement (albeit for the M3 this time) doesn't lockup either! It spins quicker when things get warm but it never seems to lockup. It looks to be a Hella/Behr part as well. yeah right I'm becoming confused by modern standards or something. i just put in an brand new coupling on my e34 and its as stiff as the one that i am replacing it with! i have it in my memory, and ive seen it written, that the coupling is meant to spin freely, very lightly at idle or when the car has yet to warm up and gets stickier the warmer the engine gets...? ...but then I'm also under the impression that oil becomes more viscous the hotter it is so the whole thing is just messing my head up slightly lol Save |
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Oct 16, 2016 23:13:16 GMT
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just watched your vid and i would whip the cam cover off if your fan isnt wobbling.
if nothing obvious is amiss then id try and locate the sound around the timing chain and you might have a damaged link or a kink or something.
what kind of tensioners do m50 cam chains have?
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j4m35
Part of things
Posts: 70
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Sounds like the chain is slapping about due to a tensioner / VANOS related problem.
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,244 
Club RR Member Number: 160
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Just to jump in on the fan thing, the coupling works as a speed limit, not a 'cut in', they will only ever spin at a designated speed. That's what the freewheel is, it's a limited fluid coupling. It's like having a permanent drive fan but it can only do a certain RPM before the fluid clutch slips.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,192
Club RR Member Number: 170
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These cars use a duplex setup . While it does sound chain like I admit I have had alternators and water pumps give out a worryingly similar rattle. I'd take the belts off first seeing as it's the easiest thing to check . If the problem goes away you know that the fault is one of the pulleys. I would think it's the water pump but only further checking of the pulleys (how they spin, free play etc.) would determine that. |
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Oct 17, 2016 15:44:35 GMT
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IIRC the bottom pulley on these a vibration damper pulley, sounds like it has gone and needs replaced, the drive belts will still be tight if its dodgy. Look in the belly pan for metal particles, if they are there is has to be the pulley.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:49:34 GMT
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Thanks once again for all the replies. General consensus, seems to be chain related, with the possibility of it being an ancillary, which makes lots of sense. Further to the tale of woe, the engine has now stopped turning over interely, making checking without the belt on a no go. When I turn it on it just makes a sound, about a second apart like a small hammer hitting some solid metal. I assume thats the starter motor having a hard time working against a stuck motor. Moving forward, my mate suggested jacking up a back wheel, putting it in gear and trying to turn the crank that way, to check if it's entirely seized or not. I've started taking off the rocker cover to have a look at the chain etc, see if that tells me anything. Thing is though, It's by far the nicest car I've ever driven, or owned and It would be insane to scrap it. But this was supposed to be the reliable car to get me about while I got the saab and my old beemer back on the road. I've only got room to park 1 car in front of the garage, thats where my pride and joy, dead old beemer is festering though. The saab is round my mates house and I've run out of goodwill storing cars anywhere else. Not getting my violin out, just expressing the joys of loving old cars One thing that this place is really good at though is making you take a deep breath and get on with it. I've read plenty of epic tales on here and they really do help nurture that mindset, so thanks for all the help. |
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Oct 17, 2016 20:01:47 GMT
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Further to the tale of woe, the engine has now stopped turning over interely, making checking without the belt on a no go. When I turn it on it just makes a sound, about a second apart like a small hammer hitting some solid metal. I assume thats the starter motor having a hard time working against a stuck motor. Could just be a flat battery and you are just hearing the solenoid click? If it was running before and you just turned it off, why would it be broken now? Nick |
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Oct 17, 2016 20:18:00 GMT
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did you buy the car privately or from a trader?
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Oct 17, 2016 20:56:04 GMT
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These cars use a duplex setup . While it does sound chain like I admit I have had alternators and water pumps give out a worryingly similar rattle. I'd take the belts off first seeing as it's the easiest thing to check . If the problem goes away you know that the fault is one of the pulleys. I would think it's the water pump but only further checking of the pulleys (how they spin, free play etc.) would determine that. again, i thought i was losing it! ...people sending me stiff couplings lol at low RPMS the fan is supposed to slip and not really move much as it puts load on the engine and doesnt allow the engine to warm up at the proper speed. at higher RPMS is when the clutch engages and works to maximum effect cooling a hotter running engine. Save |
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Oct 17, 2016 22:09:34 GMT
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Vanos rattle is quite a popular search result for these M52 engines.
Is the none starting not just a flat battery? My e46 would just tick as well if the battery is too weak, but the dash lights would do funny things too in that case.
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 Click picture for more |
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Sinky
Posted a lot
Run Baby Run......Please!
Posts: 1,395
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Waterpump I reckon.
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2001 Volvo XC70 wagon
2003 Piaggio X9 Evo
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Oct 19, 2016 17:11:20 GMT
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You could try putting the handle of a long screwdriver to your ear and touching the other end to certain components such as rocker cover, water pump, alternator etc while the engine is running. What this does is transfer sound up the screwdriver, a bit like a poor mans stethoscope.
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. I would also check the pulleys. One pulley I would not overlook besides the water pump is the alternator pulley. If it has a one way clutch these can cause a right racket if they seized up and can be easily dismissed as the pulley will not move around much. I've had a cushioned pulley go on a Clio before and then a one way clutch seize up on a MkIII Mondeo; on both I thought I initially had serious engine trouble!
