gib
Part of things
Posts: 163
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Sept 13, 2016 14:19:02 GMT
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I have bought and sold numerous classic cars in the UK and a couple in Europe and been involved with many more. These have varied between condition 1-3 but every time they have always been bought on condition / rarity / obscureness etc. V’s Price. I have never once considered matching numbers. As long as the paperwork is straight or with a reason as to why it isn’t then I have never had an issue and the price has only moved marginally to express this, the overall condition has been key. Watching the “Discovery Car Programmes” they all go on about matching numbers. I get originality but the premium attached seems far greater than condition. Speaking to a few friends from a car club they also didn’t get it. One of the more affluent members pointed out that his collection of Jaguars all have the correct type of engine but over the 30 odd years he has owned them he reckons each engine has probably been in at least 2 or 3 cars due to keeping them on the road with spare engines whilst other work is carried out. He could trace the numbers to sort this or get the paperwork changed to show the current state of play. We all agreed that back to matching was the best option but nobody could see this as giving a financial gain and saleability would only increase slightly. So the question why do Matching Numbers attract such a premium in the states that is not in line with condition? Or is this just media ( Discovery Channel) hype. Do any other countries do this? As a caveat my impression is that this is across the board down to condition 3 cars not just top end ( +£100K) motors where I can see the added value and patina. Obscurely matching numbered googled cars.    |
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Sept 13, 2016 17:30:10 GMT
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Guess it depends on whether you buy a car to look at/investment or to drive.......?
I always buy to drive.
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Sept 13, 2016 17:37:07 GMT
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Matching numbers on ferraris and things I guess is good.
But a 1.6 Capri, with a lovely v6, or an old MG with a big v8 is much more appealing
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1994 BMW 525i touring
2004 BMW Z4 sorn and broken
1977 Ford Escort
1982 Ford Capri getting restored
1999 Mazda B2500 daily driver.
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Sept 13, 2016 18:32:37 GMT
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I'd guess it means there's less chance of the car being mucked around with and bodged if you can prove it's still got all the major parts it came from the factory with after 50+ years.
Coming from a rod/custom background, such things have never bothered me too much but It's nice to sometimes see an old car that's genuinely original.
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Sept 13, 2016 18:59:30 GMT
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I've got lots of stamps. It's not an offence to change the numbers unless you are doing it with intent to deceive or to hide a stolen motor.
Matching numbers means nothing unless you are looking at a vehicle with full history from day one, even then that same car could have had a factory replacement block under warranty....
I regularly see matching numbers bikes that were never matching numbers when they left the factory LOL
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Sept 13, 2016 19:37:40 GMT
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There is less emphasis on matching numbers in the UK because hardly any manufacturers used the scheme. Ford UK cars come with matching numbers, at least after about 1963 but precious few others do, even Vauxhalls which are part of GM. And as for BL, talk about matching numbers there and they look at you as if you're speaking Greek. All my many Triumphs have had a commission number (no VIN) a different body number and yet another different number on the engine. Checks via heritage certificates confirm this is correct.
I was once able to see KC1, the first production GT6, but its body number was KC3 and the engine was KC7, so right from the start, matching numbers was a non starter.
In the States, where ALL cars come with matching numbers, things are looked at a little differently, I think the idea of a matching numbers wreck being offered for more than a similar wreck without that provenance is because, once restored, the MN wreck WILL be able to command a sizeable premium. If only in America!
Steve
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MiataMark
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,961
Club RR Member Number: 29
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Matching Numbers ??MiataMark
@garra
Club Retro Rides Member 29
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Sept 13, 2016 19:59:49 GMT
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Interesting I thought that matching numbers just meant that the numbers/components 'matched' the original build, didn't know it actually meant all the numbers 'engine/chassis...' matched.
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1990 Mazda MX-52012 BMW 118i (170bhp) - white appliance 2011 Land Rover Freelander 2 TD4 2003 Land Rover Discovery II TD52007 Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon JTDm
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Sept 15, 2016 10:48:57 GMT
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I think it's mainly important with American muscle cars, because the rare, higher-end muscle cars are essentially just a common car with a special engine in it.
This means that it is relatively cheap and easy to convert, for example, a 6 cylinder automatic Camaro or Mustang into a big-block 4-speed car, which would increase the value far beyond the cost of the parts.
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Sept 15, 2016 11:35:58 GMT
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I think it's mainly important with American muscle cars, because the rare, higher-end muscle cars are essentially just a common car with a special engine in it. This means that it is relatively cheap and easy to convert, for example, a 6 cylinder automatic Camaro or Mustang into a big-block 4-speed car, which would increase the value far beyond the cost of the parts. This is very true, my all time favourite Yank, the 66 Pontiac GTO is worth about twice as much in original "matching numbers" condition as even the most perfectly "cloned" Tempest or Le Mans, which it shares a bodyshell with. Personally, I'd go for the clone and spend the left over money on making it go even faster, but that's just my opinion. To be fair, there is a bit of this goes on in the Dolomite world too! There is many a rotten Sprint has been reshelled with a body from one of the 1500 or 1850 models. With Sprint values being double an 1850 and more than treble a 1500, no stamped VINs and virtually identical shells, it makes sense, even if it is a bit dodgy (legally speaking) Not that I would condone such activity myself, of course! Steve |
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Last Edit: Sept 15, 2016 11:49:20 GMT by carledo
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