alecf
Part of things
Posts: 424
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May 25, 2016 15:25:28 GMT
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Right to start with I'm nearing the completion of this-- retrorides.proboards.com/thread/185072/8t-powered-spaceframed-landrover-wtfany how the cars smoking on idle, long story short we have ruled out crank case pressure, piston rings and valve stem seals and guides. Pulled the turbo Monday and have now sent it to be rebuild and altered to a hybrid (this was the plan but not at the moment) I understand that if the oil drain isn't correct it cant dispose of the oil and then blows through the turbo seals. ive got oil in the intercooler pipe work after just 20 minutes of running and on the exhaust turbine. The oil return is in 2 sections made up of the tfsi top and 1.8t bottom. Ive done a fresh oil change and then disconnected the oil return from the turbo and left the section in the sump. Run the engine with the oil return going into a container and then carefully filling the engine back with oil, only down for about 20 seconds or so to see if the oil return was blocked. It ran freely and there was no change in the smoking, however looking at the position of the oil return as we have angle the engine slightly different then it should be I'm wondering if the problem is related to the oil return pipe being too low on the sump.?? .And me disconnecting the return line hasn't shown this up as the turbo and exhaust are already full of oil? Ive attached a picture to show what I mean. IF this is the case, I can simply weld over the old hole and fit a new taping higher up? if so any recommendations at to how high? I'm in desperate need of some advise please folks as I'm due to go testing Monday in the car ready to race on 11th June. And I don't want to fit up the new recon turbo Saturday and curse word that up. Thanks in advance.
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May 25, 2016 15:50:56 GMT
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I think the picture highlights the cause quite effectively, its likely that the drain is submerged and that you need to get a flat bottomed sump, wouldn't be surprised if you would have oil pickup issues if you drove it.
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May 25, 2016 16:18:12 GMT
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Do you have a restrictor in the oil feed to the turbo? Some don't need them so do, that can make them smoke.
Looking at the picture I'm thinking the oil level could also be way too high on the left hand side as you look at it? It could be burning off excess oil being drawn up the bores?
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Last Edit: May 25, 2016 16:50:19 GMT by dodgerover
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May 25, 2016 16:39:40 GMT
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Put the drain in as close to the sump gasket as possible.
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alecf
Part of things
Posts: 424
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May 25, 2016 17:01:08 GMT
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The more important looking at it now. I'm thinking to alter the sump so as it's level at the bottom. Then I'll have to cut and altering the pick up pipe as that will also be at an angle. Plans are to cut the right hand side as you look at that photo and along the front and back leaving the left where it is. Then pull it down so the bottom sits level. Then weld in a section front back and side. However this will alter how much oil the car holds so I need to calculate the old oil pan volume and the new one. I know the engine holds 4.5litrs factory. But then I've also got an oil cooler. Next question how far into the oil line should the pick up sit.
It's quite crucial this shizzle so I don't want to cock it up. There's been a lot spent on this bloody engine
Side note I can't fit the a4 sump which meant to work at this angle as the sump doesn't fit the apy block. Already tried that.
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Last Edit: May 25, 2016 17:05:54 GMT by alecf
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alecf
Part of things
Posts: 424
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May 25, 2016 17:01:31 GMT
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Oh and thanks for the input folks knew this place would come up trumps
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alecf
Part of things
Posts: 424
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May 26, 2016 11:53:34 GMT
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right, had a long hard think and read multiple threads about this. Last bit of advise needed please. Option 1- looking at the picture if I shorten the left side to make it more flat bottoms therefore loosing oil pan volume would this cause an issue. OR would option2- lengthen the right hand side and square it off, move the oil drain higher up. then cut and alter the oil pick up, would this be a better option? If so, oil pick up location? wheres best, how far into the sump ive read about 6-8mm from the bottom of the sump. The oil drain needs to be above the oil level in the sump, is this correct? Lastly my dipstick will now read totally wrong, is there any calculations as to how much oil should be fitted, as I'm now altering the colume how do I know how much to put back in? Need to get cracking with this tonight so help much appreciated.
Thanks
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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May 26, 2016 12:32:54 GMT
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Have you considered fitting a dry sump set up? For an off road competition vehicle I would have thought that it would make a lot of sense. You would never starve the engine of oil no matter what angle the vehicle was at or how it was being tossed around.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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alecf
Part of things
Posts: 424
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May 26, 2016 13:17:05 GMT
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did think of it, but to be honest there are a lot more powerful machinery out there with more exotic engines and they don't use a dry sump. I never experienced any issues with my old rv8 with oil starvation either.
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May 26, 2016 13:19:23 GMT
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I would make the right side longer, you may need to fit baffles to avoid oil surge if it was a track car pulling relatively high g's cornering but for your purposes it will probably be ok without. Maybe one to stop oil going up into the engine when going over yumps if there isn't already something in place.
Can you check the height of the pickup from the bottom of the sump and replicate it in your extended sump?
Capacity wise if you put in the standard amount into the modified sump and remark your dip stick you should have the level. You can then connect the oil cooler and plumbing then workout how much extra oil you need.
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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May 26, 2016 13:28:49 GMT
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did think of it, but to be honest there are a lot more powerful machinery out there with more exotic engines and they don't use a dry sump. I never experienced any issues with my old rv8 with oil starvation either. I was thinking that this would be a simple solution that will answer all of your questions regarding sump capacity, dipstick and oil pick up without resorting to what could well be other peoples guess work!!
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Last Edit: May 26, 2016 13:36:24 GMT by squonk
2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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May 26, 2016 13:35:24 GMT
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Capacity wise if you put in the standard amount into the modified sump and remark your dip stick you should have the level. You can then connect the oil cooler and plumbing then workout how much extra oil you need. I don't think that method would be a good idea, if the sump capacity is reduced doing that will make the oil level higher which could introduce a whole host of other problems. I'm not familiar with this engine but where are the gallery drains (particularly with it mounted at a slant)? If the original oil quantity raises the level to the point of covering the drains it could cause circulation issues by reducing the flow rate back into the sump. The correct oil level is based on the heat rejection of the oil as well so reducing the sump capacity will reduce its heat rejection. The oil cooler will help but as you have said, additional oil needs to be added to compensate for that. I'd be fitting some thermocouples pre and post cooler and in the sump to ensure the oil is at the correct temperature.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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May 26, 2016 14:05:03 GMT
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Sump capacity isn't going to be reduced though is it?
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Last Edit: May 26, 2016 14:07:40 GMT by dodgerover
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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May 26, 2016 14:09:36 GMT
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Sump capacity isn't going to be reduced though is it? That will depend on how its levelled off.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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alecf
Part of things
Posts: 424
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May 26, 2016 14:24:18 GMT
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The a4 and Passat version of the 1.8t are mounted exactly as this one is. At an angle. that was what was used in mock up. However when this engine came up an S3 lump, which was fully forged etc it was cheaper then buying the parts to build it myself. however in the S3 etc it sits with the sump flat and is transverse. Was fix I thought fit the a4 sump, issue is it doesn't fit the blocks are slightly different shaped at the gearbox end. This was about 18 month ago when we mounted this engine. I never thought about it again.
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May 26, 2016 15:10:08 GMT
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Either way he's on about putting the original amount of oil back in it, so the oil capacity won't change.
Looking at the pic in the first post it looks like the turbo oil drain would be below the oil level even with the engine at the factory angle? It's difficult to make out exactly where the pipe is going after it gets blocked from veiw by the sump.
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Last Edit: May 26, 2016 15:11:29 GMT by roccoguy
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alecf
Part of things
Posts: 424
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May 26, 2016 15:19:12 GMT
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the return goes straight into the side of the sump. my plan is to blank that return line and fit one a bit higher in the sump
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squonk
Part of things
Posts: 858
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May 26, 2016 16:53:34 GMT
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Either way he's on about putting the original amount of oil back in it, so the oil capacity won't change. Ok, if the sump is levelled by increasing the depth of the right hand side the sump capacity will increase which will mean the original volume of oil will sit lower in the sump than it should. If it is levelled by reducing the height of the left hand side the sump capacity will reduce so the original volume of oil will sit higher. Either case means the capacity change needs to be determined. The simplest way of dealing with this is to work out how the new angle of engine mounting is causing the sump to rotate and determine the position at which the oil level would be as it was with the engine in its original position. Then once the sump is modified a bit of maths should enable the correct volume of oil to be calculated to get the level into the right position thus making the level reasonably correct relative to the base of the engine block. The oil pickup pipe will also need modifying so that it sits level with the base of the sump, probably 6 - 10mm from the bottom of the sump. Bear in mind that oil has an optimum operating temperature. Changing the volume of oil will effect the heat dissipation of the oil and may make it run at the wrong temperature. This is a problem I had when I stuck a six cylinder Ford diesel in a Range Rover - the sump had to be modified to clear a crossmember and lost a bit of capacity. This caused the oil to run very hot. The solution was a thermostatically controlled oil cooler. In this case, if the oil capacity is increased and the oil cooler is not thermostatic it may make the oil run too cold thus changing its viscosity and altering its protection capability and increase drag. Would it be possible to route the turbo drain to the other side of the sump? Maybe backwards and over the bellhousing so that the drain enters the sump above the oil level. I would suggest that you sort out the sump modifications and the oil capacity before going any further though.
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2004 Chevrolet Avalanche Z71 2005 Mercedes CLK320 Cabriolet 1996 Mercedes C180 Elegance Auto Saloon 1996 Rover 620Ti (Dead fuel pump) 1992 Toyota HiLux Surf 1987 Range Rover Vogue (Rusty) 1992 Range Rover Vogue SE (More Rusty) 2006 Chrysler Grand Voyager 2008 Corsa 1.4 Design
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hario
Part of things
S202 C300STD
Posts: 421
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The turbo oil drain must enter the sump above the oil level. It will not drain out of the pipe quick enough if you don't. Agreed, cutting the right side of the sump and adding material to sit the bottom face level with ground is the way to go, and extend the oil pickup tube. Surely just fill the sump with oil/water when it's on the bench up to the gasket level and measure how much it takes to ascertain the volume? Measure dipstick protrusion below sump gasket level when the sump is off and measure how much it needs to protrude into the sump to calculate how much if any length needs to be added to the dipstick ?
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*S202 C300TD Wagon* Installed: OM606 & 722.6, Evo6 IC, S600AMG callipers & 345mm rotors. No catz. Leatherish seats.. Rust.. Future: DIY manifolds & turbo compound build. Built IP, & some kind of software. Less rust..
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alecf how are you going on with this?
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