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Oct 28, 2015 22:24:07 GMT
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Hello, I'm learning as I go and my partner in crime is my dad, who being old has the advantage of knowing some stuff about carbs etc and the disadvantage of having forgotten most of it! Any help would be much appreciated. Short version first: On turning the ignition on, fuel pump clicks loudly and constantly. It turns over but won't start. A couple of times it tried really hard and started to come to life but didn't manage it. Battery is good (new). Spark plugs are sparking. It's not a blue spark, it's yellow. (new ones ordered anyway) It is supplying fuel to the carbs - I can see it going through the filter and we've tested it. Good flow rate it looks like. There's a filter between electric fuel pump and the carb. Car has fuel in the tank (plenty). Knowing effectively nothing, I did a load of googling to the best of my ability and was kind of led in the direction of leaking float or sticking float valve, and read that that would mean that fuel would come out of the overflow/return pipe. Is this the overflow marked that we've removed a pipe from in this picture? Because it comes out of there at a pretty healthy rate when you switch the ignition on. Blocking that didn't get it to start but it did get closer to starting. Side information: I've had the car about ten days and it was ok on test drives, but died a few times on the first day. Battery terminal was loose so thought maybe it was that. Charged it, seemed better. Was running ok for a few days, drives around town etc. When it does run, it runs quite nicely, but a little rich. Then was kaput again a few days ago, Tested battery, 10v, so new battery in yesterday morning. Wouldn't start - Dad noticed the earth on fuel pump was stretched, so moved it. Car fired up happily enough, did it a few times and was happy with it. I went to use it this morning and nothing. Fuel pump didn't used to click constantly. Carbs are SU HIF. I'm reasonably sure it's a carb issue but dad doesn't seem convinced as he reckons if it was one carb the engine would fire, or at least try to fire, on one carb, four cylinders. I've no idea if he's right as I'm effectively a moron who's willing to learn! He's much better with bike carbs and has limited experience with car carbs. Any ideas? Thanks in advance.
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Oct 28, 2015 23:45:15 GMT
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Sometimes with SU carbs the dashpot piston can get stuck. If this happens the engine will crank over just fine but will not start or will only run slowly if it starts at all. You can check this by removing the air inlet from the carb and poking your finger in. It will immediately become obvious if the dashpot piston is stuck. If it is just jiggle it a bit with your finger until it frees up. Like your dad I would be surprised if both carbs did this at the same time though. How good are the petrol hoses? My Wolseley had an intermittent fuel starvation problem that turned out to be caused by the forty year old rubber hose on the electric fuel pump being perished and cracked resulting in it sucking outside air instead of petrol from the tank. It is also quite possible that the pump is rooted.
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I believe he did top up both dashpots with (I think) 10w shock oil and I'm unsure if he ran the car after that. I will clean it out and replace it - various answers as to what though, 20w50 engine oil?
The hose to the fuel pump (which seems to be quite new) is new, the hose from the fuel pump to the carb is pretty old and manky. I think we have some fuel hose in the garage and I will change it tomorrow night.
Maybe it is the dashpot oil, it was running, now isn't, and he definitely monkeyed about with them! Here's hoping.
What do you mean by rooted?
Thanks for your help.
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Rooted is a New Zealand and Australian slang term for being worn out and no good.
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Every day's a school day! It seems to be supplying fuel to the carb so it seems ok but not ruling it out. What led me to the float idea is that the pump didn't used to just click and click and click - and when I looked that up it led me to the overflow thing, where the fuel just keeps pumping and going out the overflow because of a stuck float. I'll start with the simplest thing though which is undo whatever was done re dashpot oil.
Thanks again
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Hi, the pipe that you've taken off is the fuel return pipe to the tank, the overflow pipes are the ones that are a rubber elbow onto a plastic pipe that goes forward and down the front of the engine. The pump will keep ticking because any excess fuel the carbs don't need is returned to the tank. So if there is no fuel coming out the overflows and ending up on the floor under the front of the car then the float needle valves are not stuck open. They could be stuck shut, and it is not unknown, try taking the dashpots off and looking down into the the carb and see if you can see fuel in the jet (which the needle goes into) If not then you will need to remove the carbs and take the bottom plates off to access the float needle valves. As far as the oil in the dashpots is concerned any light oil will do, so engine oil will be OK as will his 10w oil, some people swear by ATF (automatic transmission fluid) because it's stable across a wide temp range. Over time you can try different oils and see what the individual engine is happiest with. I did have one engine that like no oil in.
Colin
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Last Edit: Oct 29, 2015 0:51:00 GMT by colnerov
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gazz81
Part of things
Posts: 842
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Camshaft knackered? I had it once with an old rangerover, would turn over with the occasional splutter, turned out the cam was buggered.
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Oct 29, 2015 11:46:00 GMT
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Last Edit: Oct 29, 2015 11:46:42 GMT by vitesseefi
1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Oct 29, 2015 18:56:45 GMT
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It's got what looks like a fairly old Lumenition setup installed. Tonight I have re-done all the wires from that to the coil and fuel pump - some was just twisted and taped and I've soldered it now. I've rubbed down the contacts in the dizzy cap already but I did do it a little better tonight, they look good to me. Coil is a pertronix flamethrower but looks reasonably old as does the Lumenition setup.
Also replaced the final, old looking bit of fuel hose.
It's still doing the same thing - possibly making a little more effort than before but still nowhere near starting.
All sorts of opinions from all over the place and I think I will start with the ignition side of things first. I will order a new coil and then maybe a new electronic ignition - any recommendations for either or both?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Thanks for all the help.
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Oct 29, 2015 19:34:17 GMT
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does it run when you pour gas in the top of the carbs?
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Oct 29, 2015 19:49:00 GMT
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Without wanting to look stupid, where would we pour it? We haven't tried it yet.
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gazz81
Part of things
Posts: 842
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Oct 29, 2015 19:56:29 GMT
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You can only do that on a down draught! try easystart, should eliminate a fuel issue.
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Oct 29, 2015 20:17:01 GMT
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The V8 will run on one good carb, not very well but well enough. Are you sure the ignition timing is correct? Do you have a manual that covers setting up the timing and mixture? One way to check if the float needles are stuck is remove the dashpot and piston assembly then turn the ignition on, fuel should not flow out of the jet in the middle. Are there any air leaks after the carbs? Maybe worth putting the standard airbox on as having those air filters above the exhaust manifolds they have a habit of sucking in hot air. Does the choke mechanism operate correctly? Is there a fuel filter and is it blocked? Is there dirt in the bottom of the carbs blocking the jets? When set up right that engine should fire on the button and pull smoothly all the way until it runs out of revs
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Oct 29, 2015 20:58:50 GMT
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I'm semi-sure about the timing. it was running ok and we haven't changed it. Can it change itself? (Honest question I have no idea!) It was dying periodically before this issue started but we originally put it down the battery as all seemed well after it was charged and then again once we got a new battery on it (that was when dad moved the fuel pump earth too and it sprung to life after that but when I tried it the next day, nothing. Unsure of significance of that. I do have a manual and have found another thread also where you and another chap go through it with someone. I do plan on changing the filters for a normal airbox, that's as it was when I bought it. There is a fuel filter and it seems fine - fuel goes through it and it's quite new. Fuel gets all the way to the carbs (and back out of the return line pictured) when the ignition is on.
I think current plan is dads going to pick up a coil tomorrow if he can because he's not working tomorrow and it's simple to do. If no joy with that we would be able to take a look at the timing on Sunday and will do so.
It looks like ignition is the likely culprit from what I can glean from various advice as as you say one carb should be enough, and it was running mostly fine (but cutting out every now and then) before this. It idled and drove nicely and pulled well but was a bit rich.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Oct 30, 2015 14:18:25 GMT
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I would personally not get a new coil if you can help it. My new coil was rubbish compared to my Bosch item on the Stag.
Going by what you said it sounds like a timing issue (it's wrong, be it the dizzy has move if it is loose on the anchor plate) or more likely a fuelling issue. I would say the issue is with dirt being present in the carbs personally. Just how old is the fuel in the tanks and what colour is the fuel in the filter?
I'd try by giving the castings of the SUs a tap from the side with a screwdriver handle etc. and see if the floats are stuck. But as said they should run on on SU albeit poorly.
The fuel pump constantly ticking however sounds like the pump is running dry. Is it an SU fuel pump?
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Oct 30, 2015 18:35:57 GMT
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What was said in the first post suggests to me that the fuel side is ok. The fuel system has a return loop so the excess fuel is returned to the tank (supposed to reduce vapourisation issues) so you'd expect the pump to tick all the time, plas they has the return pipe off (without being quite sure what it was) and reported a good flow of fuel.
My money is on ignition and in the absence of points I'm inclined to blame a crappy contact/damaged wire somewhere or the Lumenition box.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Oct 30, 2015 20:28:14 GMT
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One of the problems with the Rover V8 is it's tolerance to neglect, so often when they do finally decide to stop running it can be due to multiple issues and no single 'fix' cures it immediately. The RV8 also has a habit of happily running on 7 cylinders, with the carb fueling a long way out, and even completely shot camshafts! Another common issue is the SU carbs come 'out of tune', which often can be attributed to an undiagnosed ignition fault Really worth getting a manual and going through the basics setting the carbs and timing up, and checking the wiring to and from the Lumenition kit. I had it recently on my SD1 where it would cut out when warm, sometimes restarting then immediately cutting out again. Same again the next day, started and run fine when cold, but when warmed up randomly cut out until it wouldn't start. Turned out to be a bad earth to the coilpack module which had been trouble free for a year...
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Oct 30, 2015 20:29:11 GMT
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It's got a cheap nasty fuel pump on it currently, however I'm positive it's working and supplying fuel. The fuel in the filter looks fine, and the fuel that comes out from the return is clean. Picked up a coil today, will be fitting that in Sunday and if no joy I'll replace the Lunenition setup. Here's hoping
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Oct 30, 2015 20:33:53 GMT
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One of the problems with the Rover V8 is it's tolerance to neglect, so often when they do finally decide to stop running it can be due to multiple issues and no single 'fix' cures it immediately. The RV8 also has a habit of happily running on 7 cylinders, with the carb fueling a long way out, and even completely shot camshafts! Another common issue is the SU carbs come 'out of tune', which often can be attributed to an undiagnosed ignition fault Really worth getting a manual and going through the basics setting the carbs and timing up, and checking the wiring to and from the Lumenition kit. I had it recently on my SD1 where it would cut out when warm, sometimes restarting then immediately cutting out again. Same again the next day, started and run fine when cold, but when warmed up randomly cut out until it wouldn't start. Turned out to be a bad earth to the coilpack module which had been trouble free for a year... That's one of the things we'll do on Sunday as well, check the timing. The wiring to and from the Lumenition was pretty poor, I have soldered the joints but haven't re-done the earths - will also go through all of that on Sunday. Once it's running a really good general tidy up is going to happen but I want to get it behaving before I start pulling bits off and possibly cause more issues. There's been a bit of bodging going on I think. There's a few twisted and taped electrical joins that I've sorted, there were various screws in the interior that were missing or not screwed in, etc etc. The fuel pump is as far as I can see one of the cheapest ones you can get - so that's on the list too. It's a matter of going through it all and fixing as I go I guess
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Oct 31, 2015 23:44:00 GMT
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have we thought about a compression check? plus the rover p6 v8 was fitted with mechanical fuel pump. so an electric one is a later mod. these cars tend to suffer cutting out due to gas bubbles in fuel after engine is run for a bit .especially when stopping at lights or trying to restart after a stop. mostly due to modern fuel and high ethanol contents. fitting an electric pump seems to overcome much of the cutting out issues related to gas bubbles ( vapour lock) spark can be yellow but ought to be blueish. common issues here is the mechanical advance in dizzy can stick and the vacuum advance diaphragm often perishes so no vacuum advance. this will not affect performance much though with no vacuum advance. mechanical advance will . do check out the 2 rover p6 owners clubs. may be worth joining one. ( i have) lots of useful free advise form experts owners whom will have been through any issue you come across. non starting will be under the following sections, 1) lack of fuel to cylinders 2) lack of compression in cylinders 3) wrong spark timing to cylinders 4) no or weal spark. other factors affecting starting can be related and affect ability to start and run. eg carbs not set up. flooding/no fuel supply past floats.stuck needles. high air leak on intake . badly worn cams .timing chain loose and so on. starting with basics is best. worth a try squirting a spoonful of fuel into each intake to carb. the fuel will start to gas off ( give off fumes) these ought to be easily ignitable when we crank over as long as we have a spark and its roughly timed around 6 degrees bdtc. do check the reserve fuel tap. this has 2 positions .1 supplies main tank to carb. when moved to reserve it uses a different pipe via the tap ( valve) .in my case this was not connected ( still isn't so no reserve ) but the valve (tap) had moved with vibration and cut off my fuel supply. thus no starting. since you seem to have pump working ( most electric pulse type pumps will click even with engine not running to maintain pressure ) and fuel filters clean? full of fuel and fuel flow to carbs with pipe removed ... then assuming carb ARE allowing fuel into cylinders .. and we have a spark with timing in rough area btdc and not after or 180 degrees out etc.. phsics says it ought to try and ignite . thus enabling fuel directly into inlet tracts or even removing a plug and injecting teaspoonful into a cylinder before refitting plug , then cranking ought to work. wondering if your ignition system is playing up? electronic ignition ( Luminition ) ought to give a bright blue spark even with weak battery/poor connections. do check earth leads to engine though. do we have ignition leads on correct cylinders? bear in mind its an american engine and firing order for cylinders is different to uk system e.g. 1234 will be opposite to any uk engine check with workshop manual or owners clubs . good luck and do update if we get it running OK.
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