andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 23, 2013 19:09:49 GMT
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New (recon) Bosch starter motor, hasn't done more than 20 starts, stopped working today.
Just sat there with that irritating whirring they make when the pinion is stuck. But no amount of rocking could free it.
So what else could it be? Any suggestions or ways of testing?
Thanks
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 23, 2013 19:10:42 GMT
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And should they be fitted dry or with a dab of grease on the pinion and pinion teeth?
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Jan 23, 2013 19:25:09 GMT
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Best fitted dry or they pick up clutch dust and stick......
Given that you have a slightly eclectic mix of parts there, how sure are you that it was ever engaging nicely with the flywheel (having visons of engagement by just a few mm which has now been eaten off the pinion). Usually the solenoid pings the pinion into mesh and only makes contact to bring the motor into action when it arrives at the end of its travel. May have to be hauled out for inspection - I imagine that could be a trying job?
Nick
Edit: other possibility is that it got stuck in the engaged state and has now eaten the over-run clutch - or the over-run clutch has just packed up just because....
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2013 19:27:15 GMT by vitesseefi
1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 23, 2013 20:00:05 GMT
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Given that you have a slightly eclectic mix of parts there, how sure are you that it was ever engaging nicely with the flywheel (having visons of engagement by just a few mm which has now been eaten off the pinion). Usually the solenoid pings the pinion into mesh and only makes contact to bring the motor into action when it arrives at the end of its travel. May have to be hauled out for inspection - I imagine that could be a trying job? Nick Edit: other possibility is that it got stuck in the engaged state and has now eaten the over-run clutch - or the over-run clutch has just packed up just because.... It is out, takes 30 mins (about an hour to go back though!). The teeth look fine and the solenoid is working, i.e. going in and out. I presume that the over-run clutch problem won't show when I test the solenoid on the bench? Haven't looked at the flywheel yet, started to get dark and I was getting cold! However, it was only making that whirring noise they make, when the pinion isn't engaging (or stuck?), nothing worse! Not sure what else to do, but buy another starter and try that.........? |
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 23, 2013 20:01:22 GMT
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Given that you have a slightly eclectic mix of parts there, how sure are you that it was ever engaging nicely with the flywheel (having visons of engagement by just a few mm which has now been eaten off the pinion). Not sure at all  ! |
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Jan 23, 2013 21:55:49 GMT
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Quick easy and harmless thing to try before getting into the heavier possibilities - try lubeing the pinion with bit of pencil lead - it'll transfer onto the teeth and doesnt gather crud. Assume battery in tip top condition. May be worth trying to bridge starter solenoid in situ using big bolt - just make sure car's not in gear and you wear thick rubber gloves as it'll spark plenty.
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Opel Manta GTE
Subaru Brat
Vauxhall Centuar
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Daily smoker Octavia VRS
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Jan 23, 2013 22:57:15 GMT
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I think if it wasn't engaging properly you'd see the evidence on the teeth. Presume the ring gear is still on the flywheel (that's a Triumph trick though - BMW bits probably ok....)
Chewed over-run clutch is still a contender - difficult to test - sometimes you can see the outer casing has gone a bit bulgey...... Still got the receipt for the dodgy one?
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 25, 2013 20:17:27 GMT
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Wondering what can be the cause of this failure?
The pinion isn't turning, goes in and out, but not round and round! So I guess it's as Nick says, over-run clutch?
The replacement starter is noisy too, though not as bad as the one that failed. The teeth on the pinion and the ring gear seem fine, no damage that I can see.
So what can cause the over-run clutch to fail and fail so suddenly?
The only possible mismatch in the starter system is the distance of the ring gear from the starter, otherwise, it's an E30 flywheel, ring gear and starter, only change is that it's on a m52 engine.
Not going to pull the starter to pieces, hope to get a refund!
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Jan 25, 2013 20:21:28 GMT
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Suspect it was just dodgy repro rubbish - I think you said it was noisier from the very start?
Get a refund....
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 25, 2013 20:40:23 GMT
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Suspect it was just dodgy repro rubbish - I think you said it was noisier from the very start? Get a refund.... Nick Hope you're right Nick, the used replacement is all Bosch, the repro wears a Lucas badge! Guess only time will tell, only 5 free recovery's now! |
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,194
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Bosch Starter Motor IssuesChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Jan 25, 2013 22:12:45 GMT
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It's not the first time I had had a dodgy repro starter motor. If I am honest, alternators are the worst IME.
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 26, 2013 11:47:18 GMT
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Well, the big car parts retailer called ECP, not only refunded, but apologized!
Stuff happens like this, it's how they deal with the problems that really matter, 5 stars to ECP!
I'll see how the this starter motor will hold up now..... if it fails as quickly, then I've got a problem!
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Jan 26, 2013 14:07:15 GMT
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That's a good result then. My experiences with ECP have mostly been positive - apart from a reluctance to send parts to anywhere but my home address (where card is registered), where there will be no one to receive them...... Local branch has now solved this. They also hold my record for the smallest part in the largest box.....
Hopefully the new (old) starter will live. Must say that when scrapyarding I'll take original, unmolested Bosch items (usually alternators) in preference to anything shiny looking with a recon sticker.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,161
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Jan 26, 2013 15:58:54 GMT
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The starter jammed today at first try....freed after a good rocking, then continued to work OK for the next 5 or 6 goes. Was working fine on Thursday. Still very noisy, but not as bad as the old starter. I guess if this one fails or continues to jam, it's an engine out job and a proper look at the ring gear.  |
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Jan 26, 2013 21:32:23 GMT
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I'd be looking at engagement distance. Sounds like it might be going too far into mesh so shimming it out 2 - 3mm might sort it.
Either that or the flywheel diameter is slightly greater making the mesh very tight? Or different number of teeth/tooth pitch. Had similar with Dolly 1500 (special pre-engaged starter) vs Herald 1300 (usual Lucas inertia job). Inertia things did not work with Dolly flywheel (mainly due to lead-in chamfer on wrong side of the ring gear) but Dolly pre-engaged did work with with ring gears intended for inertia - just sounded rough due to different pitch of teeth.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend)
1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing)
1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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!
