horney™
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,289
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Sept 11, 2012 16:06:24 GMT
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This from the EU:- Reports in the press that the European Commission has proposed to make modifications to cars illegal, or to ban classic cars unless they are unchanged since manufacture are entirely wrong. The Commission’s proposals would not, if agreed by the Member States and the European Parliament, make any difference to the current situation regarding MOT testing in the UK except to make most classic cars more than 30 years old exempt from testing if they are not used day-to-day on the roads. All other cars would remain subject to roadworthiness testing, just as they are now. Whether or not they have been modified is not of itself relevant: what counts is whether they are safe and that is what is assessed by MOT tests in the UK and by the equivalent tests elsewhere. What the proposals will do is require all Member States to bring their road worthiness tests up to a certain level of rigour, already applied in the UK : for example, motorbikes will need to be tested regularly everywhere, as they are already in the UK. This will make driving safer for UK drivers at home and abroad. The Commission is writing separately to all the newspapers concerned, none of which checked the facts with us before publication. blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/press-reports-...
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Sept 11, 2012 17:07:53 GMT
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Corsa Apology Champion 2014.
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dbdb
Part of things
Posts: 821
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Sept 11, 2012 19:41:07 GMT
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We've just seen the birth of the latest Euromyth: banning modified cars! There are lots of Euro myths, the British media is full of them. It amazes me that people still believe them all - several of them are even mentioned in this thread! QI on 'Euro myths'
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Rich G
Posted a lot
Keyboard Worrier
Posts: 1,059
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Sept 11, 2012 19:52:11 GMT
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Two points from this.... This from the EU:- The Commission’s proposals would not, if agreed by the Member States and the European Parliament, make any difference to the current situation regarding MOT testing in the UK except to make most classic cars more than 30 years old exempt from testing if they are not used day-to-day on the roads. Where in the proposal does it say anything about how often 30 year old cars could be used? And... This from the EU:- All other cars would remain subject to roadworthiness testing, just as they are now. Whether or not they have been modified is not of itself relevant: what counts is whether they are safe and that is what is assessed by MOT tests in the UK and by the equivalent tests elsewhere. What the proposals will do is require all Member States to bring their road worthiness tests up to a certain level of rigour, already applied in the UK : for example, motorbikes will need to be tested regularly everywhere, as they are already in the UK. This will make driving safer for UK drivers at home and abroad. It very much depends on what benchmark they intend to use for their "level of rigour". If it were the UK MoT Test then things may not be too bad. But if they use the TUV as a benchmark, then that is a whole other ball-game!
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Sept 11, 2012 20:01:33 GMT
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/\ Every silver lining has a cloud
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Corsa Apology Champion 2014.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,843
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Sept 11, 2012 20:42:38 GMT
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The MOT doesnt test the safety of a vehicle, it tests the individual components of a vehicle to make sure they haven't failed.
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Sept 15, 2012 7:31:15 GMT
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I've been off here for a while and had to re-make an new account (used to be manbearpig or something to that effect...). Anyway - I've now swapped the viva for an awesome Mk2 Consul highline (1958) - chuffed to bits about taking to the spanners and sticking a V6 in it - but this is all a bit worrying. can someone answer a few questions? I've just spent 12 hours reading up on people posts, letters from MEP's and the proposed legislation document itself ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/pdf/road_worthiness_package/proposal_for_a_regulation_on_periodic_roadworthiness_tests_en.pdf - and any info I could find on Annex IV (which from I could make out after an hour of reading was just a load of waffle about procedure of the coalition) - and I'm still stumped on a few things: What I think I know - The world is not going to end - we can still modify and alter - but they will need to be tested and added to a Euro wide database. Not a huge biggy - but it depends of the stringency of the new testing measures when they are published. It's mainly aimed at motorcycles, trailers, commercial vehicles, agricultural vehicles, and stricter vehicle inspection (or MOTs - whatever it will end up being), mainly on the points of electrical components and diagnostic checks as part of the test. Test will probably get more expensive because MOT centers will need to equip with more diagnostic tat). It goes in to more detail in a typical typical efficient Euro way. I think they may want us to be driving automated cars in the not too distant future like Judge Dredd - and have us scarfing soylent green until it comes out of our down trodden, penniless oppressed rear ends - but I'll save that particular rant for now. What I don't know - 1. Will cars that are already modified and ticked off with the current IVA testing standards, have to undergo mandatory re-testing by the new measures? 2. When do the new measures come in - like do I have time to waz a v6 in my consul and get it through an IVA before it all kicks off? 3. Am I only entitled to MOT exemption if my car is still running the original running gear and engine? Does that apply to ALL custom pre-'60 cars (like are already customised cars still MOT exempt in November - or can I customise my pre '60 car at any time and it's still MOT exempt (obviously pending an IVA after any modding work). Please help! Brain fried!
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Sept 18, 2012 23:31:06 GMT
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so whats happening? thought debate was supposed to start mon afternoon?
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theres more to life than mpg & to much power is just enough.
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Sept 18, 2012 23:31:35 GMT
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so whats happening? thought debate was supposed to start mon afternoon?
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theres more to life than mpg & to much power is just enough.
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Sept 19, 2012 13:03:09 GMT
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It did... I know at least Popuptoaster watched it.
Apparently (as I understand it) no change for us in the UK .. it was explicitly stated that a 1950's car with a modern engine fitted would still be able to run on the roads.
I'm sure ACE will be back on soon to fill us in on what it all means now.
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Sept 19, 2012 13:15:19 GMT
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At first I was like 'WOAH!', then I was all 'wut?', now I'm just 'meh' [pending further info].
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Sept 19, 2012 13:15:29 GMT
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I watched it too. Not quite as much info or clarification as I would have liked but they did at least alude to modified old cars still being viable... although there was no detail as to how or what hoops you may or may not be required to jump through to achieve it. I guess that part will more than likely be down to our own DfT. I was hoping there would be some info about the suspension of registration upon a bad MOT failure but there wasn't really anything. I think that would probably present a bit of a threat to old cars as owners who have neither the money or skills to repair their car might well be stuck. Can't sell it on without a registration so what will they do.. scrap it? TBH, the debate was largely a lot of waffle. There wasn't really a lot of beneficial information to be had
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1962 Datsun Bluebird Estate - 1971 Datsun 510 SSS - 1976 Datsun 710 SSS - 1981 Dodge van - 1985 Nissan Cherry Europe GTi - 1988 Nissan Prairie - 1990 Hyundai Pony Pickup - 1992 Mazda MX5
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pbottomley
Posted a lot
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isnt for you
Posts: 1,135
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Sept 30, 2012 14:11:41 GMT
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Surely the bit that ace picked up on about the mot's just means that if your classic car is modified it can't be classed as historic and will need a yearly mot no matter how old it is?
Personally I'm of the opinion that every vehicle on the road should undergo a yearly mot anyway so if this means some of the cars that would of been exempt from one would now need one then that's fine by me
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Last Edit: Oct 4, 2012 12:48:00 GMT by roccoguy
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Rich G
Posted a lot
Keyboard Worrier
Posts: 1,059
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Surely the bit that ace picked up on about the mot's just means that if your classic car is modified it can't be classed as historic and will need a yearly mot no matter how old it is? The problem is that if the definition of Classic as contained in the proposed Regulation is adopted then there is no current UK VED tax class for a modified classic to fit into. DVLA will not allow you to move a vehicle that is currently registered as Historic VED class into the PLG VED class - even if you do wave £220.00 under their noses.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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Surely the bit that ace picked up on about the mot's just means that if your classic car is modified it can't be classed as historic and will need a yearly mot no matter how old it is? The problem is that if the definition of Classic as contained in the proposed Regulation is adopted then there is no current UK VED tax class for a modified classic to fit into. DVLA will not allow you to move a vehicle that is currently registered as Historic VED class into the PLG VED class - even if you do wave £220.00 under their noses. Why would you need to move it into the PLG group anyway? Since the 'no MOT' cutoff is pre-60, and the 'no VED' cutoff is 1973, there are still going to be a large number of cars that still need MOTing, but qualify as 'historic'. So including a 'modified pre-60' car into that category has nothing to do with what VED class it's in, it will simply fall under the same MOT requirements as a post-60/pre-73 vehicle.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,843
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Who would decide if the car needs to be MOT'd or not unless it goes into a different vehicle class?
Most of the legwork in identifying illegal vehicles is done by ANPR.
Pre 1960 cars that remain standard no longer need MOT (just tax and insurance), so you need a vehicle class for those (Historic) so that the ANPR system doesn't constantly send warnings for having no MOT.
1960-present cars need tax/MOT/insurance. There would need to be 3 taxation classes as all the 60-73 cars don't pay VED, everything 73 onwards upto 2001. Emissions based VED after. Modifications would not affect cars in this class. ANPR would easily pick up illegal cars as all post 1960 cars need to have MOT, tax, insurance.
That just leaves modified pre 1960 cars to sort out. They get free tax, but have to be MOT'd. You could lump them in the 1960-1973 vehicle class. However who would decide which class the vehicle should be in? They can't expect the owners to change it themselves, its too open to abuse. The only way I can see it working properly is either if they inspect every pre60 vehicle and decide whether its modified or not, just class every car that has the "has the vehicle been modified" box on insurance ticked as modified (no matter how small the mod) or give owners a set time to declare themselves, the slap a big fine on modified vehicles that are caught still in the Historic class.
Whichever method is a massive amount of work for no monetary gain. Gonna be interesting to see how it pans out.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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Oct 11, 2012 12:13:23 GMT
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There is no need for any new classes, be it VED or MOT.
The current VED system already has sufficient classes [Historic/1973-2001/2001 onwards].
There is also a current class for an MOT-exempt vehicles, which all pre-60 vehicles would automatically fall into under the new UK MOT Regulations.
However, IF the new EU Regs stipulate a modified pre-60 vehicle loses its 'no-MOT' requirement, the best way would be to leave it to the onus of the owner, much in the same way that modifications need to be declared to the insurer. An ANPR system, for example, will not be able to detect a modified vehicle from a stock one.
So if a vehicle is involved in an accident, and 'undeclared modifications' are found which would either invalidate insurance or its 'MOT-exempt' status, then action is taken accordingly.
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Oct 20, 2012 17:14:52 GMT
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I have to add, forgetting about the implications to car modifiers etc.. Doesn't it make perfect sense to kill an entire industry off with legislation at a time of economic crisis?
How is this going to make jobs, increase revenue and increase prosperity?
Only an idiot or a politician could possibly think this is a good idea.
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pbottomley
Posted a lot
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isnt for you
Posts: 1,135
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Oct 27, 2012 12:01:04 GMT
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How is this going to make jobs, increase revenue and increase prosperity? Only an idiot or a politician could possibly think this is a good idea. Who said this had anything to do with making jobs? its about the EU's mantra of Harmonisation at all costs.. As you say only a politician could think it up... Just remember that when you try to judge the merits of these sorts of things... To often folks put it in context of reality and fail to see how it could be true... The only way we stop this sort of curse word is by kicking up a fuss... and that's what has been done, so that those idiots at the EU can not ignore the cries of vehicle owners.
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