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Apr 26, 2012 10:43:08 GMT
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Good morning/afternoon/evening ladies and gents. As the 3 people who have looked at my build thread would know I currently own this: And to its credit it has been a reliable and trouble free motor car. But it simply doesn't inspire me to lay on the cold concrete (well, what counts for cold on the east coast of Australia anyway) and tinker with it, get up at ungodly hours to go find some twisting roads and generally just stand around and smile at it like my crusty old Corolla did. Also it is an enormous magnet for the constabulary and street drifter bogan heroes. So, with the blessing of the minister for war and finance, the criteria for a replacement is: 1. RWD 2. Naturally aspirated (preferably of the twin weber style) 3. Under a tonne 4.Reasonable aftermarket support 5. Suitable for the odd track day/hill climb and scenic jaunts through the country Accordingly my candidates so far are: The quintessential go to car for RWD shenanigans in most of the empire, the Ford Escort: Pros: never going down in value, solid aftermarket support, Aussie mk2's all had the option of a Pinto so power is not an issue Cons: to stay in a sensible class in Australian hill climbs the rear end set up can't be 4 linked or any of that jazz, kind of expensive, RUST The Japanese answer to the Escort, the ae86 Corolla/Sprinter/whatever: Pros: also never going down in value, for the same price as a neat 2 door Escort I'd be looking at a very well set up and shiny ae86, rear suspension is better out of the box than an Escort Cons: most have been mucked with by drifters and bodged, crashed and generally abused, possibility of similar negative attention to the Silvia (unless I go paddy spec, which is what I am keen on) RUST And possibly a bit more left field, the Holden Gemini, better known globally as a Vauxhall Chevette or Opel Kadett: Pros: cheapest of the 3 options, rear end set up is at least radius arms + panhard so a step up from the Escort out of the box, little bit different to see done "properly" in Australia, 1600 is easily swapped for 2L engines (and often already done) Cons: aftermarket a little more sparse than other 2 options, have somewhat of a bad rep for being, erm, well, "non tastefully modified" (think chrome 18" wheels, cream leather and airbrushed all over), RUST SO I have owned an ae71 and driven ae86's so I know what I am in for there. However something that is difficult to find in Australia is someone who has had a steer of both a Gemini/Kadett and an Escort. So basically what I am asking is, what is the better car out of the box? In my mind the power potential of all the options is fairly similar. What have you driven? What did you like? What are the weakpoints you found? Keep in mind the Gemini came with a mind blowing 80hp stock, but otherwise the rest of the set up is the same as a Chevette. All opinions and left of centre alternatives welcomed! Cheers for reading my novel!
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Copey
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,845
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Apr 26, 2012 10:52:26 GMT
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talkin about regs, the Capris that ran in Bathurst ran plastic leaf springs, but with coilovers, they got away with it because the coilovers were classed as "spring assisters" sneaky buggers haha
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1990 Ford Sierra Sapphire GLSi with 2.0 Zetec 1985 Ford Capri 3.0 (was a 2.0 Laser originally)
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scruff
Part of things
Posts: 621
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Apr 26, 2012 10:53:24 GMT
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I know of a few Porsche 924 owners in Oz. There is even a Oz run (But mostly Yank populated) forum: 924board.org
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1994 Lotus Esprit - Fragile red turbo with pop up lights. 1980 Porsche 924 - Fragile red turbo with pop up lights.
I spy a trend...
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thebaron
Europe
Over the river, heading out of town
Posts: 1,646
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Apr 26, 2012 11:05:09 GMT
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While I like all your options let me just leave these here
Flames...
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Last Edit: Apr 26, 2012 11:06:46 GMT by thebaron
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Apr 26, 2012 11:24:08 GMT
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Datsun 510. IRS and sweet predictable handling, tuneable OHC stock and plenty of bolt in swaps available... and a huge aftermarket of performance/race goodies. And they look great too...
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1962 Datsun Bluebird Estate - 1971 Datsun 510 SSS - 1976 Datsun 710 SSS - 1981 Dodge van - 1985 Nissan Cherry Europe GTi - 1988 Nissan Prairie - 1990 Hyundai Pony Pickup - 1992 Mazda MX5
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EmDee
Club Retro Rides Member
Committer of Autrocities.
Posts: 5,920
Club RR Member Number: 108
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Apr 26, 2012 11:37:38 GMT
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love all your choices, I'd go for the GM option personally, only because they're a bit less common.
how about:
Opel Manta? Isuzu Piazza? E30? MX5? Volvo 360?
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Apr 26, 2012 11:50:40 GMT
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Did you get Lada Rivas? And are they hillclimb-able in a sensible class?
Double wishbone at the front, 4-link live axle at the rear, coils all round, easy swap to a Fiat Twink. Only problem is the image. ;D
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kee
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,989
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Apr 26, 2012 11:52:33 GMT
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Mazda RX-7?
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Apr 26, 2012 11:54:51 GMT
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Datsun 1600! They're fantastic. Just watch out for rust.
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Apr 26, 2012 12:05:23 GMT
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love all your choices, I'd go for the GM option personally, only because they're a bit less common. how about: Opel Manta? Isuzu Piazza? E30? MX5? Volvo 360? Manta wasn't sold here, Piazza's are super rare as are Volvo 360's. I actually considered both the mx5 and the e30 when I bought the s13, they are a bit new for what I am keen on though Datsun 1600's seem to be silly money lately (as in dearer than an Escort silly) which scrubs them off the list. The vast majority have been rallied, can't remember seeing one on the road that wasn't a rally car in my whole 27 years! Also I don't really like them, sorry Don't know that we got the Riva's here? We definitely got Niva 4WD's, and the Samara
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Apr 26, 2012 12:08:57 GMT
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While I like all your options let me just leave these here Flames... Loving the positive votes for the humble Gemini here too guys - I was beginning to think they might be a hateful thing as they aren't really used much for motorsport here, other than a one make series that is more based on cheapness and one genius who does this:
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Apr 26, 2012 12:21:19 GMT
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Did you get Lada Rivas? And are they hillclimb-able in a sensible class? Double wishbone at the front, 4-link live axle at the rear, coils all round, easy swap to a Fiat Twink. Only problem is the image. ;D don't think Australia got the Lada Riva, just the Niva and Samara. New Zealand however did get the Lada saloons (marketed through the New Zealand Dairy Board), so it would be possible to get one if you can actually find one.
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1993 Fiat Panda Selecta 2003 Vauxhall Combo 1.7DI van 2006 Mercedes Kompressor Evolution-S AMG SportCoupé
"You think you hate it now, wait til you drive it"
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Apr 26, 2012 12:35:13 GMT
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if E30 is too new, E21? MX5 sprang to mind as wlel, getting old now but I guess maybe not old enough. those Opels are very common in belgian stage rallying, a are ascona's can the rears of escorts not be linked up and turreted as per homologated rally cars? or does it have to be as per road version?
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Apr 26, 2012 12:50:27 GMT
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1993 Fiat Panda Selecta 2003 Vauxhall Combo 1.7DI van 2006 Mercedes Kompressor Evolution-S AMG SportCoupé
"You think you hate it now, wait til you drive it"
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Apr 26, 2012 18:35:42 GMT
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ive had an escort and a chevette, both stock, and the chevette was better handler but the escort was funner(if thats a word)
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"quote hairnet"
I'm not paying nine pound for a pi$$!
[/quote]
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Apr 27, 2012 10:39:00 GMT
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gemini is easy to hot up, lots of bits available for them engine wise, can also be fairly easily converted to DOHC engines too, However escorts are fun too (have owned a few mk1's and a couple of mk2's) but the escorts can be pricey to get bits for over here i think or it was the case when i had mine! (i was looking at 5-speed and EFI about 10 years ago!) unfortunately getting a reasonably priced escort now is hard as alot were infested with factory rust, and i have seen some rusty ones for the price of a reasonably solid gemini. my choice now would be the gemini, but if i found a good enough escort at the right price i would seriously consider the escort, if for nothing else than being able to sell it for a profit for little outlay. not sure if i have helped or hindered! have you considered a stanza? they can be similarly modded like a datsun 1600 only they have a 4 link rear rather than IRS or if you can find one an isuzu bellett they are fun, and there are a few being raced rallied/hillclimbed here in Australia!
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1967/8 Isuzu Bellett 1969 Isuzu Florian Deluxe
Never buy a car you cant push...
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f3ared
Part of things
Posts: 21
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Apr 29, 2012 21:23:57 GMT
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Been lurking a while and this is probably the first post i can actually reply to... I may be biased having owned 7 of them, but get a Gemini. They werent under-represented in motorsport, they just don't seem to get the recognition they deserve. I believe Walter Rohrl won a rally champtionship in the euro GT\E Version, they were hugely popular in rallys down here in Aus along with alot of bathurst campaigns under the CDT banner. Pros - Weight [as with most old RWD cars], double wishbone front suspension is far superior then any corolla/mazda/escort of the same era, rear end in standard form works well [alot better then the leaf sprung rear on the escort], there is a decent aftermarket for them if you know where to look, engines/trans/diff are strong [remember, the engine/box came from Isuzu commercials, diff on the aus models was based on the borg warner off a Commodore], can still be had cheap and parts are still easy to come by. Cons - Because of the rear end design with torque tube, there are no bolt-in rear diff upgrades availible without spending some serious coin redesigning the rear end, likewise lsd diffs are hard to come by. I just run a welded "locker", set the suspension up right and alter your driving style and the usual drawbacks of a locked rear are gone. Front suspension despite being a nice piece of kit limits you in terms of adjustability - no way to adjust the ride height without changing springs like on a coilover equipped strut car, and cant run as crazy negative camber up front, but i would argue you don't need to - with the unequal length front arms it gains negative camber on suspension compression. I will go as far as saying the front end works better then my S15 200sx did. They vary alot from the european models so not sure how accurate any comparisions drawn to Kadettes would work - ive driven a few on holiday to euro, its sort of like comparing a VN Commo to a VT - same chassis underneath, but drive completely completely different. All of "ours" from TD onwards had updated suspension geometry and handle pretty good out of the box, we also got the stronger diff engine/box/diff setups - no anemic 1.2 OHV engine here, just the solid 1.6 alloy headed SOHC straight from Isuzu. Plenty of bolt-in swaps, from the 1.8/2l sohc ex-jackaroo/rodeo, to the 4ZD1/E1 [2.3/2.6] SOHC's from the later Rodeo, to Isuzu DOHC's etc. Alot of part interchangability too. Here are my two. Sedan was originally a 1.6 auto bought off an old couple, first had a G180 DOHC ex-Gemini ZZ/R with minor mods [aftermarket ecu, extractors and a larger throttle body]. Made 82kw or 110hp at the rear wheels. Then i turbo'd the standard 1.6 SOHC. EFI Inlet manifold off the rodeo 2.6 bolts straight on, had a turbo manifold made up to suit a T04 500hp roller i had lieing around, Microtech ECU and that really was it - only internal changes were a set of Crow HD valve springs and a mild turbo grind cam on what was essentially a tired old engine. Thats 210hp at the rear wheels for those still using imperial measurements, on 17psi, on a standard engine! Currently rebuilding it [new suspension, brakes, paint etc] and slotting another DOHC in there, this time with cams, quad throttles, coil on plug etc as i want to start doing hillclimbs in it. Also have this one. That one has a G180 SOHC with cosworth forgies, 4k worth of headwork, solid billet cam and a host of other things. Its getting a Garret GT3076R and I'm aiming for 300kw [400hp] at the wheels.
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Heaps of good info guys, thank you everyone for your responses! Espeacially you f3ared, that is an aweosm eright up! I basically came to similar conclusions regarding the suspension - it seemed like it was a better "out of the box" set up than an equivalent Escort. The plan would be to start with an RTS TD - just have to sell off my Silvia first. It's a shame the Gemini Coupes are so rare these days as that is what I would ideally like. There are 2 for sale from one bloke on a few sites but I'd say they'll be gone by the time i get my finger out
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f3ared
Part of things
Posts: 21
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They are a brilliant little car that have the ability to be insanely addictive and incredibly frustrating all at the same time ;D If I'm honest I wouldnt limit the searched based on needing the RTS package - its easy enough to fit to a TX/C and, seeing as your likely doing hillclimbs etc in it, your most likely going to replace the RTS components with aftermarket stuff anyway. Personally, if I were in your shoes, id look at buying the cleanest Gemini body-wise and going from there. In terms of recommended engine mods, id suggest lifting the whole 4ZE1 EFI 2.6 straight out of a Rodeo and dropping that in the gemini. While I have a soft spot for the old G series SOHC, they don't come close to having the torque of the 4Z series or the power of the G---W DOHC series in naturally aspirated form. E1 is probably the best bang-for-buck, the DOHC's are insane engines but can be expensive to get right. Anyway, to whet the appetite abit... DOHC in action. That all said though, you do realise an MX5 fits the criteria you mentioned to the t...
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Last Edit: May 1, 2012 9:17:37 GMT by f3ared
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Yeah but the thing is I actually want an old school, rally inspired, live axle car. I already have a "late model" (because 1991 is late you see) that does everything "better" than an old Gemini or similar.
I really should do more research regarding the RTS - if it is bolt in style things then I agree, clean body is key. I had assumed for some reason it was more involved than that. In regards to engines hill climb classes hamstring engine swaps to some extent. Classes are split into under and over 2 litre, then numbered from 1 -4 (for sedan based cars) with 1 being showroom stock and 4 being a a space framed sports sedan. An engine swap within the same family (i.e. Holden into Holden) bumps you to type 3 where I have seen a g200 Gemini be competitive, but if you ran the 2.6 then you end up in the over 2L portion of this class and that is the preserve of some ridiculous machinery.
My plan would be to run in type 3 with an LSD (there is someone on Ozgemini making these I believe) and around 100hp at the wheels. Nothing crazy, just a predictable, tail happy spitting and snarling little car, ha ha
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