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Last Edit: Nov 4, 2011 17:04:52 GMT by rmad
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It's unleaded vs. leaded all over again!
I reckon this one is whinge bin bound, but I'll leave it for now in the hope that the discussion will be about the technical aspects of running older cars on new fuels rather than politics.
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carburettor cars can't run on 10% ethanol? You adjust the mixture or change the jets...
Theres places in the USA running 85% Ethanol in fuel let alone 10%. This defo does require carburettor mods to run. In places in the USA they run 10% ethanol in regular gas anyway during winter and I can't recall why (I think its to do with maintaining the specific gravity in very cold conditions to ensure the filling station pumps meter accurately) but I don't hear a lot of people complaining over there.
I hear scare stories about ethanol eating your carburettor away from the inside and destroying old type fuel lines but I heard all these stories when unleaded came in and I've never seen evidence of this on any of my older cars.
Perhaps the thread title should be changed to something less Daily Express like "will increasing ethanol content in petrol harm older cars"?
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Last Edit: Nov 4, 2011 16:28:15 GMT by akku
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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EmDee
Club Retro Rides Member
Committer of Autrocities.
Posts: 5,920
Club RR Member Number: 108
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Thanks to Nick (Horney of this 'ere parish) for posting this list of new VWs on another forum: With few exceptions, E10 is cleared for use in all Volkswagen passenger cars with petrol engines. The exceptions are the following models with the first generation of FSI engines: Lupo 1,4 (77 kW) made from August 2000 to November 2003 (model year 2001 - 2004); Polo 1,4 FSI (63 kW) made from February 2002 to June 2006 (model year 2002 - 2006); Golf IV 1,6 FSI (81 kW) made from November 2001 to May 2004 (model year 2002 - 2004); Golf IV Variant 1,6 FSI (81 kW) made from October 2001 to October 2006 (model year 2002 - 2006); Bora 1,6 FSI (81 kW) made from October 2001 to September 2005 (model year 2002 - 2005); Bora Variant 1,6 FSI (81 kW) made from October 2001 to September 2005 (model year 2002 - 2005); 5 Golf V 1,4 FSI (66 kW) made from November 2003 to November 2004 (model year 2004 - 2005); Golf V 1,6 FSI (85 kW) made from August 2003 to May 2004 (model year 2004); Golf V 2,0 FSI (110 kW) made from January 2004 to May 2004 (model year 2004); Touran 1,6 FSI (85 kW) made from November 2002 to May 2004 (model year 2003 - 2004); Touran 2,0 FSI (110 kW) made from October 2003 to May 2004 (model year 2004). Pretty poor show if you ask me. Apparently it was used in Australia for a while and they thought it downright sucked. I'll just leave this here:  |
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Last Edit: Nov 4, 2011 16:35:13 GMT by EmDee
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Pretty poor show if you ask me. Apparently it was used in Australia for a while and they thought it downright sucked. From the Austalian Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, a bit of background on the technical issues: REASONS WHY ETHANOL BLENDED PETROL IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN SOME OLDER VEHICLES
Introduction
The following information outlines the key reasons why vehicle manufacturers do not recommend the use of any ethanol/petrol blended fuels in vehicles made before 1986. This information is also applicable to post-1986 vehicles listed as unsuitable to use ethanol blended petrol.
Ethanol has a number of important chemical and physical properties that need to be considered in a vehicle's design.
Carburettor Equipped Engines
Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks.
The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure.
Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.
As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components.
Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable. Water in the fuel system can also result in the engine hesitating and running roughly.
Fuel Injected Engines
In addition to the issues mentioned above for carburettor equipped engines, the use of ethanol blended petrol in fuel injection systems will result in early deterioration of components such as injector seals, delivery pipes, and fuel pump and regulator.
Mechanical fuel injection systems and earlier electronic systems may not be able to fully compensate for the lean-out effect of ethanol blended petrol, resulting in hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration.
Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start can also result.
Exhaust And Evaporative Emission Levels
Lean-out resulting from the oxygenating effect of ethanol in the fuel may affect exhaust emissions.
Of more concern is that fuel containing ethanol can increase permeation emissions from fuel system components, particularly those that have aged for nearly 20 years. Therefore the increased vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted at the refining stage) will lead to increased evaporative emissions.Interesting that they should say vehicles post-86 should be ok, rather than post-93 in the report in the OP. |
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1989 Peugeot 205. You know, the one that was parked in a ditch on the campsite at RRG'17... the glass is always full. but the ratio of air to water may vary. |
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did the top gear guys not have a problem with the ethanol eating the seals when they did the 24hr race in the 3-series?
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Stupid question but what adjustments exactly would need to be made to a carb'd car to make it run properly on the E10? Ignoring the speculation that it will eat seals and that, I'm just interested in the running issues.
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One of the points I picked up from all that is that it'll make my car run like a bag of curse word. No change there then!
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From what I read, it adds some extra oxygen into the mix, so you'd need to richen the mixture a bit.
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Just a thought, would there be an aditive to counter the effects? I'm not too clued up on these things so forgive me, but like an octane booster? Or something to reduce any bad running effects?
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apparently there will be an additive. but it's just a pain in the behind
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that is true, But if it saves my carb/engine I'm happy to take the time to put it in ;D
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85% ethanol petrol only in america? It's here too... it's called E85  Random point, a car running E85 can have a rather nice increase in power. As it uses less oxygen to fully burn, you can burn more fuel, in the same volume of air. It's also got an amazing octane value (around 120RON IIRC) so the advance can be whacked right up too. Rather useless on a carb'd car (unless running solely on E85/Ethanol) but fuel injection cars can run dual maps to truly benifit from this... only fairly modern ones mind you, but still ;D |
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You're like a crazy backyard genius! |
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crazymonkey
Posted a lot
ummm....what was I doing again???
Posts: 1,981
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I know it was a problem on 2 stroke scooters and some cars where it "apparently" (as don't know how responsible it is for this) ate the rubber seals away. It was only a problem on cars that had filled up at shell shortly after they'd introduced the 10% ethanol and apparently mechanics first question when a car wouldnt start was "have you recently filled up at shell"? because no other garages were doing it
don't know how true it was but there was a big topic on one of the clio forums and classic scooter forums.
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whoever said dogs were man's best friend....obviously never heard of cable ties
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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85% ethanol petrol only in america? It's here too... it's called E85 Not anymore it isn't, the Government stopped subsidising it, which made it too expensive, so it was scrapped. |
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Yes, it'll eat away the fuel system. Well known issue down here. Even some moderns aren't suitable for E10.
Latest generation Holden Commodores can run anything from 91 ron through e10 and up to e85. Needs a clever sensor in the tank to work out what type of fuel it has and adjust accordingly.
The V8s go like stink on e85 apparently, but the fuel consumption gets really, really bad.
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1982 Mercedes 280TE
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Yes, it'll eat away the fuel system. Well known issue down here. Even some moderns aren't suitable for E10. Latest generation Holden Commodores can run anything from 91 ron through e10 and up to e85. Needs a clever sensor in the tank to work out what type of fuel it has and adjust accordingly. The V8s go like stink on e85 apparently, but the fuel consumption gets really, really bad. The energy content per unit of ethanol is less than petrol so yes, fuel consumption will suffer. |
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1995 Range Rover 4.0
1995 BMW 320i Saloon
1989 BMW 325i Touring
1991 Mercedes 300TE-24
1991 Mercedes 190e
1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom
1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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tri
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,572
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Just as well I only use V-Power in my Escort anyway then I guess  Dunno what I'll do in 2014 if that changes too though. |
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 I forgot how to retro...  |
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I believe the boating scene has been dealing with this situation for a while, they have found that the ethanol eats fuel lines and fibreglass fueltanks when sitting for extended periods of time
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Remade In Australia
thereimaginarium.com.au
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Dunno what I'll do in 2014 if that changes too though.