Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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Loving this thread, good work so far and hopefully you'll get to the bottom of the small issues soon. What a mix of things, ticks loads of box's for me, V8 (big want for something v8) Turbo (who doesn't love a turbo?) and RWD J (miss all my 200sx's) just a pure blend of awesome well done
(now starts adding lexus soarers and IS's to my ebay watch list)
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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yeah was a bit of a change, i love work and ive been off due to shielding for medical reasons. Was all a bit strange, effectively the only other enclosed space ive been in with people in last 5 months was my return to work yesterday. All a little bit odd. Any way this place is for the cars. Id really like to get the car somewhat usable before the weather changes so ill be on it when i can be. Ive been informed the rad i have also fits the rover/mg hatchbacks and it turns out theres a few down the scrap yard for me to hopefully pillage for a fan
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Spending way too much time thinking about this but what about trying this as a test. Get a 12v fan and a shroud and then direct wire it to a 12v battery. Go fir a test drive and if it doesn’t overheat problem solved. If it does then move onto the next thing. P. I will do once the new gasket and alternator turn up
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Ok i was intrigued so i measured the rad capacity. New rad roughly 1000ml capacity old rad 1400ml capacity. The new setup does have longer hoses though and the block is bigger so may hold more water there?
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Cheers for all the help guys, The only thing i can see that i haven't tried is to shroud the fan. The rad itself is panelled off all the way around. Flow to it is as sealed off and maximised as i can get it, including adding a bigger scoop from under the car to catch more air and get it to the face of the radiator. v8ian yeah its behind the seats, theres a lower scoop and 2 side vents to try and get air to the rad. paul Y i never had a shroud on the fan in the last setup and it never had an issue with temp but did have a fixed fan. I will try a fan shroud on there before condemning it to the front of the car. When i fit an alternator and move to 12v ill be able to fit the fan unit off the car the rad came from which should give me some extra flow also. The little dynamo really struggles to have a fan running at idle and keep the battery above 6v, i think its cut in charging speed is about 1600rpm. The 12v swap will sort that out. peteh1969 i still cant get around how the rad could be too big? wouldn't it over cool if it was? I think it probably holds less water than the original item though. I can measure the rad capacity though so will do that in the next few days for comparison. Cheers again everyone for all the help and tips of where too look for answers its really appreciated.
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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The design and setup works totally fine with a fixed fan both in normal and gordini (more hp) configurations so was perfectly fit for purpose at the time. It was never designed to run with an electric fan that switched on and off so inefficiencies in flow or pressure were not an issue. This is where i think the problem lies, flow wasn't actually great from the start but the fixed engine fan sorted that out.
I'm now running an engine that produces more power that the gordini version so essentially has more power/heat to get rid of without an engine fixed fan forcing air through the radiator.
Is your theory i need a smaller radiator to force more air through it? Ive ran the polo rads on ITB clio 172s a few times over, great when running and never had an issue when on track, the fan does cut in more often at idle than the standard bigger rad though.
I'm open to everyones ideas and will try everything i can out to prove/disprove what may work. Keeping the radiator out the back saves me fabrication work up the front and running long solid pipe under the car.
I'm waiting for a new head gasket to turn up and i will reassemble everything and do some more testing now i have a infrared temp probe and a gauge i can wire up. I am looking to possibly swap out the header tank for a VW item and style system too. They look to have a feed pipe to the lower radiator hose and a bleed pipe from the top hose to get rid of air easier.
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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Renault 8 GTTAdey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Oh Hi
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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this is a cheap honda rad with a 520x360mm core.
are all your rads in front fitment?
the car in stock form, both the dauphine and r8 have fixed fans forcing and creating the flow through their radiators at all rpm's. So placement of the rad is less of an issue. I agree an electric fan shouldn't be on at all when driving along. I think the location is the main issue so lack of flow but not down to how dense it is just through radiator placement. This rad i have when held up to the light shows the same if not more light through it than the original smaller rad. I don't have any other way of testing is ability to flow air through it.
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Jul 28, 2020 14:10:17 GMT
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If you can do it in a way similar to the Imp was done recently and insulate the pipes you should have minimal if no chances of the pipes freezing/splitting in the winter if she's kept out side. ill see if i can find the thread and look a some pics
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Jul 28, 2020 13:43:19 GMT
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yep properly fell on my face here lol
So rad will be moved to the front of the car and I'm going to switch to 12v (both things i tried to avoid) should give me a higher pressure and flow location for the rad and the oomph to run a decent factory fan off something that can really shift some air when needed vs the fan i have now.
Cheers to all those who have offered help and advice along the way, i like to be difficult and go against the grain when building something but in this instance i should of just gone with what was the norm 30+ years ago.
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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99.9% sure. Had 11 gt turbos and 2 gordini's an 11 turbo, definitely comfortable with bleeding them properly. Ive had this jacked up and pressure bled with the header tank nearly 2 foot above the rest of it to make sure. Cracked off all the joints to make sure as well.
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Jul 27, 2020 10:31:20 GMT
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Being rear engined though it may require continual forced air movement and can’t rely on ram air (as you would if the rad was up front); not a problem with an engine driven fan of course.. Closest analogy I can think of is an Imp where it used to have an engine driven fan (and a tiny rad) except I can’t recall of the rad being retained in its usual location and losing the engine fan - it’s normally accompanied by moving the rad to the front.. i think this is where i have dropped the ball going against whats normally done......
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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lol no worries I'm all ears for ideas on how to help it run normally.
1. Airflow in either goes through the rad or back under the car but fully sealed off around it. (current theory is it doesn't allow the air through it with its low flow/pressure location to actually cool)
2. Good idea but the issue is heat build up when driving, ideally i don't want the fan to fun all the time to keep it cool, at idle the fan though slow seems to be able to keep it at a constant normal temp between 92c and 82c? wouldn't ducting the fan just help when the fan is running?
3. The rear of the engine bay is unobstructed with massive vents, propping the decklid didn't seem to make any difference to running temp once heat had built up.
4. No notable difference once it build up temp on the move, it seems to retain heat until pushing the water out of the header tank.
5. The only way ive been able to check this, and i have, was to rev the engine as high as i could whilst not moving. I did it cold and hot to see if it was an issue with the stat both open and closed. No hoses were collapsing when doing so.
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Last Edit: Jul 27, 2020 9:09:08 GMT by Adey
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Ill dig it out, came from somewhere in the states (china). Part number was 910151-12 brand was speedway from my notes. When it turned up it just looked like a generic china fan and i was pretty gutted tbh but i waited quite a while from point of order to receiving it. It runs on a thermo switch and at idle will get up to temp and run for a minute about 1m40 after running a while then back off again, but it seems slow, making me think its actually just a 12v fan running at half speed (and the fact its identical to a generic no special packing, plain cardboard box).
As jonsey has said its probably an airflow issue, the oem had a mechanical fan always running, mine doesnt. Most put the rads up front, ive kept it out back (must be for a good reason) I was probably a bit naive to think i could do it this way when nearly every pic of an engine swapped one has the radiators upfront.
I cant see adding an electrical water pump helping as if i cant get the air flow too cool it all i will be doing is circulating the water more, my temperature issue is when driving also, when at idle it seems to behave.
Should of just gone with what everyone else has done and switch to 12v and fit the rad up front from the start but whats the fun in that lol. 12v to run a decent fan and rad up front for better flow.
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Jul 26, 2020 21:46:14 GMT
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i'm suspecting rad lash up old one and see if that changes things My concern is that old rad was designed for half the hp and had a fan constantly pulling through it and way undersized for this application. I'll dig it out tomorrow and give it a clean. Need to wait on a new HG before I can test anything.
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Jul 26, 2020 20:52:22 GMT
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jonsey They are more central than the pic shows though slightly different front to rear. The outer pairs seem offset to each other, the liners look to be machined to touch but the inner 2 don't have flats on them and a bigger gap. Ill have a mull over it and decide if i should try a better rad or move it up front
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Last Edit: Jul 26, 2020 20:55:33 GMT by Adey
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Jul 26, 2020 20:48:15 GMT
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can you fit mechanical fan as well as electric one? Unfortunately not, in both the dauphine and r8 they have a fan bolted to the water pump but at opposite ends of the engine. Mine now has the water pump at the wrong end of the engine to match with the rad location. If i fit a fan to this it would end up through the boot lid and theres no space for a rad at the rear of my car.
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Jul 26, 2020 19:45:03 GMT
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all excellent information and ive learnt something new, great stuff thanks
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Adey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,404
Club RR Member Number: 171
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The 1957 "The Dope" Dauphine Adey
@adey1984
Club Retro Rides Member 171
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Jul 26, 2020 18:47:53 GMT
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Could you explain in layman's what you mean with the higher air side pressure drop?
So options are? big aluminium custom rad that's more like the original brazed core or move the rad up front to get more airflow/frontal pressure?
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