B-8-D
Posted a lot
down to one car!!
Posts: 4,038
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Feb 13, 2011 18:40:48 GMT
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Don't even think of using the non-turbo W58 either - the input shaft isn't that large, and cant handle more than 250lb/ft of torque, even tuned d7M-GTE's have been known to turn those W58's into oversized grenades! try and tell that to the aussies pushing there 500hp smallblocks with them.. tbh its all relative.. as ive said before.. if a gearbox can apparently take 250 lbs of torque does that mean that I will break it with a stage 2 ca18det thats dying due to very worn rings and struggling to produce 222hp?? (my old viva for reference that produced over 250ftlb) ive known plenty of skyline being given hell that produce over 400hp and 400 ftlb of torque not break the std gearbox and they are supposed to be much weaker than the w58 let alone the r154. to be honest who has worked out these torque or power figures?? if a gearbox can handle a certain amount of torque before its broke?? as it changes its "seen" torque throughout the box and in differeing gears. and for a gearbox to "experience" the whole (lets say for this instance 300ftlb)and the engine produces this torque figure max.. it would have to be producing this maximum torque at the time.. ie reving to the point that the engine produces this torque and with the clutch not slipping at all with the rear wheel actually bolted to the floor for there to be no slip at all... for the box to "experience" this torque. and then the shockloading would be for maybe a split second and depending how many times the box is put through this procedure will all take it toll due to fatige stresses. all veriable IMHO to be honest if a 600hp bigblock doesnt use 18" wide slicks with hard launches on the dragstrip.. then maybe the wheels will loose traction before the gearbox even see's 300bhp.. before that happens there would be some clutch slip and a bit of movement on the engine mount rubbers c oupled with a bit of twisting of the propshaft.. all losses. and maybe just maybe the gearbox might "experience" 250ftlb of that max producing torque and that IF the engine is reved to its max producing torque rpm and the clutch dropped!! *ok this above that ive written is all figures plucked from the air and is for all intence and perpose a talk of rubbish.. but I hope I am at least I am explaining how I see it...* ive been told so many times that a certain axle or gearbox wont take the a certain amount of power/torque and I have personally proved that wrong on many occasion so I ask if actually people have personally had multiple faliures at a known torque or power rating before they anounce what they have read, as gospel anyway.. I going to use a std w58 gearbox on my 318 mopar that will be turbocharged and running anything from 400hp upto 650hp depending on how much of a tune I'm able to afford (and how much I'm prepared to set the boost setting to "self distruct mode" ;D) so soon I will find out how much a w58 will take... the only personal experience I have had with these types of gearboxes are; the w50 ironbox behind my bosses old 327 chevy in his old healy.. he ran that for several years with 350 to 400hp.. andf that box is still very sweet... sorry about the ramblings of what looks like a 11 yearold.. I do go on a bit sometimes si
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Last Edit: Feb 13, 2011 18:43:00 GMT by B-8-D
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Kai
Part of things
Posts: 276
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Feb 13, 2011 19:06:57 GMT
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It's not possible for a W58 to hold the torque - if a 300hp 7M can break them like they're made of glass - how are the aussies using them? R154's with a smallblock - sure. A340's, when built - sure. W58? Pfft. No chance.
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B-8-D
Posted a lot
down to one car!!
Posts: 4,038
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Feb 13, 2011 19:54:15 GMT
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It's not possible for a W58 to hold the torque - if a 300hp 7M can break them like they're made of glass - how are the aussies using them? R154's with a smallblock - sure. A340's, when built - sure. W58? Pfft. No chance. www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?316493-Took-the-W58-to-the-trackforums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&th=145&rid=&S=80b005f77c974f8a9f9047ee965b582b&pl_view=&start=0again though this stuff I could copy off the internetz.. all day.. like I say I'm going to try it after speeking to people that have done it I think its worth chancing esp for the price.. damn mick wilkes did tens(?) in his firenza turbo with a std type9 ford box behind it with reasonable success for a few years.. its all relative.. I'm not going to be "hooking up" 15" slicks on my car so they will just breakaway moreoften than not... how many w58 gearboxes have you broken that were in good condition behind what car, at what curbside weight, with what hp/torque with how much grip?? basically its all rubbish quoting figures for such a variable thing (like I did earlier lol : .. usless you have actually done back to back tests on the relevent gearboxes.. like I say I'm going to try it.. I wont take all the stuff I read on internet forums as a representation of the truth as there are too many who will just relay what they believe through reading what they have read themself from a "well respected" forum guru.. most of which turn out to be people with no real world experience of what they are advising.. not that I'm portraying you to be such I'm sure you have had plenty of experience. I'm just saying that to add my 2p that one should do there own research by asking guys who have actually done it. and make up their own mind on the matter.. if there are a few companys out there that actually make bellhousings for this purpose (fitting a w58 to a smallblock ford/chevy/mopar) then maybe they make it because its wanted?? so someone must think its ok?? si
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Last Edit: Feb 13, 2011 19:58:56 GMT by B-8-D
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Feb 13, 2011 20:15:52 GMT
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Horsepower dosnt kill boxes. torque and shock loading do. You can atach the smallest cheese box on a huge engine as long as its treated properly. the w58 is an ok box, but its doesnt like to be treated harsh or it will self destruct. The r154 is a bloody good box, and nigh on indestructable, the RB25det box is good for 700bhp/700 ft/lb of torque and take it Z32 box is basically a skyline box in slightly different case. the V160/161 getrag is one that will take pretty much anything you can throw at it but at the price of them you would expect it too. PS ive done LOADS of research on different boxes for my conversion and settled on the 350z 6 speed, can be had cheap and can take alot of abuse, but early boxes do have input shaft bearing problems.
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Feb 13, 2011 21:33:10 GMT
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ruishy beat me to it.
Torque is what will do for your box, which is why T5s die behind V8s but live well behind turbo 4 pots.
The F Body (Volare, Aspen) is basically a reworked A body.
The old 4 speed will fit with a bit of work, Z bar clutch and all that. They Did the Aspen RT with a manual IIRC.
There are kits to fit the T45 or TKO trans etc. in an A Body but they cost more than you paid for that car...
Now there used to be a trick, and you need to go search on Moparts because thats where I heard of it, to use a Toyota 5 speed box on a Mopar small block using factory parts...
Y'see, there is a Dodge Durango V6 which had a manual box, supplied by Toyota... The V6 manual bell housing also fits the LA small block V8s. Ergo you can bolt a Toyota supra box to a Small block mopar using a factory bell housing. You will need a manual flywheel, easy to get, and a hybrid of Toyota and Mopar clutch parts (Mopar friction plate, Toyota pressure plate as I recall) and there is a small spacer needs to be machined up. The guy who did it also ran a hydraulic clutch using Durango bits as I recall.
Castlemain Rod Shop do (or did) adaptor kits to fit manual boxes to Mopars and more.
Also recall a stock LA318 smogger makes like 120 BHP. Its not like its a hemi or anything.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Kai
Part of things
Posts: 276
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Feb 13, 2011 22:04:38 GMT
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Rebuilt W58 (stock rebuild w/marlin crawler thrust bearing) in a '90 Mk3 supra turbo - spec stage 1 clutch, 300whp & 312lb/ft torque (57 trim CT26 Turbo @ 10psi, Lexus AFM & 550cc Injectors), 4th gear pull on a dyno = KABOOM. Input shaft shattered. I'm not some n00b, i'm well aware of the internals of the box - i've been dealing with Toyota's for years - not parroting other peoples 'opinions'. Theres a good writeup on mkiiitech.com by DrJonez about what causes W58's to go 'boom'. Think about it this way - the gearbox was designed to take 200lb/ft, tops. It's a direct descendant of the box used in 4-pot celica's. The W58 in the Mk4 Supra was a one-off special, designed to bolt to a JZ engine, with beefed up internals, to handle the extra power the 2JZ-GE produced over the 7M. As many others have said - its torque & shock loading that kills transmissions. So i'll say again - how do you think a W58 is going to survive behind a Chrysler 318cu in V8 that produces 245lb/ft @ 2000 rpm (stock) Try it by all means - but i'm pretty certain it'll end in tears.
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I have one of their conversion bellhousings up the garage, but I cant remember their name, Ill have a looksie later, Jeep are Mopar, Jeeps use a 4wd version of the venerable T5 BW box, That may be a thread worth following, BUT, if you go that route, the bolt flanges for the box to bellhousing can be different, with different bolt patterns, the Mustang/later camaro world class box would probably be the right option Dodge Dakotas used an Aisin Warner AX-15 behind the 3.9L V6 which is just a 318 less two cylinders. The AX-15 is related to the Toyota Supra R151 in that the they share the same bellhousing mounting bolt pattern. There is plenty of info on the web as these were used behind four cylinders trucks and in Jeeps and are thus useful in swapping 5speeds behind AMCs or transplanting Chrysler 2.2, 2.5, 2.0 or 2.4 engines into a north-south engine configuration.
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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An Aspen is mid-sized. Not a real heavy Moper, in fact might be lighter, for example, than a Sierra.... for a comparo... Aspens are pretty heavy. They were heavier than the A-bodies that they replaced. Heavy, isolated K-frame, heavy 5mph bumpers, increased trim levels. I'd be surprised if you could find one that weighed in under 3200 lbs. Early A-bodies (62-66) are the lightest Mopars, and even then a slant six 2dr post probably tips the scales at 2600 lbs. Later A-bodies (67-76) are bigger, wider and heavier and depending on options probably weigh in between 2900 lbs and 3400 lbs. Still, in their day Aspens would have been considered svelte.
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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v8ian
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,824
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Feb 14, 2011 10:04:23 GMT
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I have been running a w58 behind my Rover for about 5 years now, and if there was ever a scenario for a box to break, drag racing provides it, I have done hundreds of drag launches at the pod and shakey, running 1.5sec 60 fts, the car weighs in at about 1000k with driver, I have a fair amount of respect for this box, A T5 lasted 3 weeks, LT77 about 3 years, don't believe it launches hard on street tires---- ---- bonnet was off to find a problematic high speed misfire, never found it, until the timing gear exploded later that week
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Atmo V8 Power . No slicks , No gas + No bits missing . Doing it in style. Austin A35van, very different------- but still doing it in style, going to be a funmoble
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Feb 14, 2011 15:46:02 GMT
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Thanks for proving my point. A Sierra RS or Merkur XR weighs around 3000. A Focus RS (current model) weighs 3200. You don't even want to know what a new Camaro or Mustang weigh! The Aspen is flyweight by comparison. As said. ;D An Aspen is mid-sized. Not a real heavy Moper, in fact might be lighter, for example, than a Sierra.... for a comparo... Aspens are pretty heavy. They were heavier than the A-bodies that they replaced. Heavy, isolated K-frame, heavy 5mph bumpers, increased trim levels. I'd be surprised if you could find one that weighed in under 3200 lbs. Early A-bodies (62-66) are the lightest Mopars, and even then a slant six 2dr post probably tips the scales at 2600 lbs. Later A-bodies (67-76) are bigger, wider and heavier and depending on options probably weigh in between 2900 lbs and 3400 lbs. Still, in their day Aspens would have been considered svelte.
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Feb 14, 2011 16:32:21 GMT
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A Merkur XR is top-of the line. A 3200 lb aspen is a stripped out base model.
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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paulw
Part of things
Posts: 217
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Feb 14, 2011 16:37:38 GMT
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Late to the thread I know, but I've investigated most of the options here (last Dart was an 833 four-speed, one I've got now is a shift-kitted 727 auto - one of the best old Mopar autoboxes, but still an auto) and I'm a bit worried that fitting a Toyota box or TKO would involve enough tunnel/reinforcement hacking that the DVLA will start sticking their nose in (however stupid it is that replacing a rusty floor on a car is legal, and sticking a different-shaped tunnel in might not be, this nonsense is only going to be more of a problem in the future)
Kev, when you've bought that A-body manual set up and decided that you didn't need it, can you sell it onto me at a loss in a couple of months please? :-D
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Lotus Seven '58 Ford Special 64 Barracuda
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Feb 14, 2011 16:56:06 GMT
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A Merkur XR is top-of-the-line. A 3200 lb aspen is a stripped out base model.
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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kevfromwales
Posted a lot
the conrod's REALLY out the block now!
Posts: 3,909
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Feb 14, 2011 18:14:04 GMT
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lols @ paulw I was only asking as ritchie has now got a 440 for his 56 chevy, and he's unsure if the 727 he has at the moment will be ok - think 350 might be a bit pricey for him, the 440 only stands him at that... - oh, and BTW - if anything kills gearboxes, it's a trip down the road with me on the stick....
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Almost on the road: b11 sunny breadvan, e36 tds, 325i skidcar,
nearly there: ford f250 tathauler, suzuki alto, u11 bluey
not for a while: ford pop, 32 rails,
not in this lifetime: ruby, '29 hillman
''unfortanatly I'm quite old and scruffy and in need of some loving. my drive shaft needs a new boot....''
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Feb 14, 2011 20:06:45 GMT
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lols @ paulw I was only asking as ritchie has now got a 440 for his 56 chevy, and he's unsure if the 727 he has at the moment will be ok - think 350 might be a bit pricey for him, the 440 only stands him at that... - oh, and BTW - if anything kills gearboxes, it's a trip down the road with me on the stick.... Big block 727s are very strong transmissions. If the 440 is anywhere near stock the transmission should be able to hold up ok, providing it isn't already worn out.
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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paulw
Part of things
Posts: 217
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Feb 14, 2011 22:54:01 GMT
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as mrabody says, properly built, 727s will take pretty much anything, which is why I'm scorned in the MMA for wanting a manual! They'll also run for a long time even while worn out, but will be horrible to drive if so (like my old box was), but I know someone who can sort mopar boxes for reasonable money if ritchie's worried about the one he's got. The shift kit can make a real difference - switching from my tired 904 to my kitted and rebuilt 727 is totally different.
I'd say it's more grief to do the conversion than sort the autobox unless he really wants a manual. which with a big block is harder on your left leg...
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Lotus Seven '58 Ford Special 64 Barracuda
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Feb 15, 2011 18:00:04 GMT
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If you have deep pockets, and don't want to cut up your original 4 speed mopar (assuming you have an original 4 speed mopar), Passon Performance will shortly be introducing the A-855, a brand new 5 speed transmission that pretty much plug and play. details can be found over at Moparts. It looks like a lovely piece of kit:
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1995 Range Rover 4.0 1995 BMW 320i Saloon 1989 BMW 325i Touring 1991 Mercedes 300TE-24 1991 Mercedes 190e 1970 Sunbeam Imp Sport
1966 Valiant 200 Custom 1964 Ford Fairlane 500 Station Wagon
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