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not the TV show, don't worry just been reading this on The Times website. they've invented these new cameras which cost £10,000 a piece and use digital photography and two photographs so that they can get a clearer image of who is behind the wheel when the speed offense takes place. They go on to say how people have been IN-PRISONED (one a nurse...arent we short of nurses and having to bring them over from the Philippines?) because they tried to claim someone else was driving. In one case the DVLA tried to get in contact with someone in the USA. All the while, people living in the UK paying these taxes for the cameras are faced with being stabbed and un-able to get any sense out of the DVLA. The article also says how by 2012 (6 years away) the DVLA will instantly be able to check the photograph from the speeding offense with the photograph on your driving license through this new computer. Probably the same one that they want to have tracking your every move. Which brings me onto my next point, the new DVLA television advert about car tax. The advert is a disguised advert for Big Brother UK, but what they are basically saying is 'BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU - THERE IS NO ESCAPE.' I mean, have you seen the new slogan, from the DVLA - a Government ran department - ' YOU CANT ESCAPE THE COMPUTER' or something. That is disgraceful. Great Britain is forever banging on about human rights of prisoners, asylum seekers and everyone else, except for the British public who appear to be a great source of money when they issue fine after fine. it makes my blood boil, especially when you consider that we are all powerless against Blair and his un-stoppable hunger for power. It scares me.
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Count down to a ranting rev starts in 10....9.....8......
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Worries me no end too! but What can we do? I'll sign/march anywhere!
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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Its meant to be a democracy yet the population is powerless, how does that work, sounds more like a dictatorship to me. Also has anybody else noticed it is an 0870 (premium rate) number to call the DVLA which is a govornment department, (goes for numerous other govornment departments as well) seems they arent content with fining our arses they also want to steal our lunch money. You can find the alternative regional numbers at: www.saynoto0870.com/search.php.com
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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I don't like it but I can't gather together much of an argument against it.
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thats a good site! Nice one!
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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Technology is beginning to highlight a fundemental clash between the INTENTION and REASON for having laws and the actual letter of the law.
laws are constructed by society in order to give people aframework within which to live. Without laws there would be chaos. Laws are intended to set social boundaries and indicate to society as a whole what those boundaries are. They are to coin an analogy "analogue" There is no absolute right and wrong but a blurred area that people choose to live within. Criminals choose to live without and the polices job is to catch them and protect society. Breaking minor laws that cause no harm does not in essence make you a criminal.
Speed cameras and computers make laws "digital" The law is right and you are wrong. This forces everyone within the society to live within the exact letter of the law at all times. Any transgression however minor is an automatic offence and punished automatically.
While this sounds tempting in a "You only have to fear if you do something wrong" the plain fact is that EVERYBODY does something wrong at sometime, everybody.
Analogue laws know this and take it into account. Society continues. Digital laws don't know this. At some point everyone becomes a criminal, often several times a day. The effect on society when everyone is criminalised is two fold. Peole feel oppressed and persecuted by the state, which turns the police and government into enemies of the people. They also come to regard a whole raft of laws as not really laws. When you get 15 speeding fines a week from automatic cameras or black box control systems then the law becomes more of a tax, until you loose your license or some other penalty is proscribed.
The government (and people in general) need to catch up with the social implications of unfettered technology. At the moment it is simply assumed that technology is a catch all solution to law breakers whereas in many cases it simply destroys the society it is supposed to be protecting.
over to you Rev...
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This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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However, criminals are caught by camera technology. The cameras get past people bleating on "they don't know" whos driving their car. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
If you claim someone else was driving - when they weren't - its perjury at least and an Attempt To Pervert The Course of Justice possibly. Both of which can carry jail time.
So being a nurse means you should get let off a criminal offense Perhaose we should have let Harrod Shipman off, after all he was a doctor, and we need all the doctors we can get.... right...
The problem is where technology is used instead of proper policing, proper resourcing. It should be another tool the cops have not something to replace cops.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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The computer geek i work with gave me that 0870 link. its a good un. We need to keep our freedom its EXTREMELY important. Motorists are already the criminals villains, look how many kind people helped out daz max on his near crash, but it goes deeper than that. Action needs to be taken IMO. Keep our freedom now - cos we wont get it back ever if it gets taken!
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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That whole business about local numbers gets my goat. We run locall services at work, we don't get anything from BT to do this, WE PAY THEM. This is so that people calling from outside of the 0115 STD area pay the same local rate as those within. You are welcome to call us on our normal number - the call will cost you more! Then I get some peole bleating that its not in their free calls bundle and blah blah blah. Take that up with your phone company. They also charge for 0800 (freephone) numbers on mobiles and we've dropped our freephone now anyway. Don't ask me why Vodafone charge you for calling us on the 0800 and not on the 0115 I don't run Vodafone... Tell you what why don't I just give you free money out of my own frickin pocket. You can't please everybody. So everybody can sod off.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Action needs to be taken IMO. Keep our freedom now - cos we wont get it back ever if it gets taken! What freedom are you thinking you are losing?
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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However, criminals are caught by camera technology. The cameras get past people bleating on "they don't know" whos driving their car. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. But that's one of the problems. YOU are the criminal, eventually. Do you want to spend the rest of your life "doing the time" in the form of endless fines/point on your license? The technological solution is driven by politicians trying to appease Mr and Mrs Net Curtain, who don't view themseves as in any way criminal, even though they almost certainly routinely break minor laws all the time. By the time Mr and Mrs Net Curtain relaise that they too have been criminalised by digital lwas it will be too late. [edit] The "passing off" of points that these new cameras are supposed to stop is in itself a symptom of digital laws. The people caught speeding do not regard themselves as criminals so they view the offence as a sort of taxation and take steps to avoid or mitigate it. The result is further criminalisation.
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Last Edit: May 24, 2006 9:28:35 GMT by Shortcut
This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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I don't like it but I can't gather together much of an argument against it. Agreed, it certainly is very hard to come up with a good counter-argument to this sort of thing. To employ these sorts of digital systems surely means you are accepting that the systems will never ever make a mistake. After all you can’t go round fining folk and charging them with this that and the other unless you are absolutely certain they have done wrong. Unfortunately mistakes are made, and always will be. If you read those sites like speed-trap.co.uk and pepipoo, an amazing number of folk who actually bother to investigate and contest their speeding fines (for that is the only offence that is currently managed ‘automatically’ in any volume) uncover all sorts of dodgy practices and techniques and very often get their fine sacked off. A good argument would be to not ‘automate’ any fining/charging/fixed penaltying of any offence until a long period has gone by where no-one has been able to prove their innocence against the system already in place. Otherwise by automating it you are accepting that a small percentage of innocent folk are going to get nailed incorrectly along with the folk who really do buck the system. It sucks monster cock anyway, be aware that while the UK is ploughing ahead with compulsory ID cards with biometric data on, a nationwide ANPR database on all major roads, satellite-based road charging, a national DNA database (WTF!!!), databases for MOT insurance and MOT and all the rest of it, NONE of any of this is even on the horizon in continental Europe. You could always join Liberty and send these guys www.no2id.co.uk a few quid though.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Once every street is littered with cameras and other technology to keep tabs on our every step (like the black box car thing), thats it.
We know too well that the technology is not implemented properly, so i believe its dangerous.
Yes i agree don't do the crime. laws are getting dafter and then policed by technology, not many people respect the made up rules or the cameras. I would welcome more friendly bobbies on the beat, thats the way to do it! not only will people be carful but the streets will be safer..
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it doesn't matter if it's a Morris Marina or a Toyota Celica - it's what you do with it that counts
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However, criminals are caught by camera technology. ARE THEY BO11OCKS! If you are deliberately up to no good, it doesn’t take much effort to scupper a camera system. Put some different ‘cloned’ reg plates on your car and put one of those gay ‘motorsport’ barry sunstrips on the windscreen and you’ve just about cracked it, you are anonymous. The unlucky sod whose car was cloned now has to actively prove to the coppers (because they have ‘incontrovertible proof from a camera’) that he was NOT in the area where the bank job was done. If however you creep up to 76 mph on the duel carriageway or move into a bus lane to let an ambulance past, you are scum and your ass is busted by big brother. F*****g makes my blood boil.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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May 24, 2006 10:21:11 GMT
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ARE THEY BO11OCKS! If you are deliberately up to no good, it doesn’t take much effort to scupper a camera system. Put some different ‘cloned’ reg plates on your car and put one of those gay ‘motorsport’ barry sunstrips on the windscreen and you’ve just about cracked it, you are anonymous. ANPR? It'll flag up make/model, so apparently quite a lot of cars on false plates get pulled because they don't match. Book as many people as you want for driving without insurance/tax/MOT and I'm a happy man, I pay through the nose for mine. Plus, although I can't be bothered to look it up, some unfeasibly large number like 40% of people caught via ANPR are wanted on various criminal charges. Having worked for the Highways Agency over the last year, the thing that worries me is the DVLA database. In common with all government IT systems, it's utter bobbins. Edited to say: Mmm, 40% accuracy. Although it also says during their trial (which was a year) they recovered £8m of drugs and stolen property...
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Last Edit: May 24, 2006 10:24:13 GMT by angle
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May 24, 2006 10:42:09 GMT
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However, criminals are caught by camera technology. ARE THEY BO11OCKS! Yes, they are. A facial recognition camera tied to APNR was trialed in Nottingham about a year ago now. It was set up on the A610 coming into town in the rush hour. A mile down a bunch of squad cars were waiting. Now I forget the exact numbers, but in one day they recovered half a dozen stolen cars, apprehended a dozen people who'd skipped bail, about 20 people with outstanding warrants, half a dozen illegal immegrants, and a bunch of other stuff. They also recovered a load of crystal meth, miscelanius stolen property in transit, and a couple of offensive weapons including a semi auto pistol. Info and "stuff" recovered lead to something like 70 arrests around the city of actual real criminals. Thats in one day. Now imagine they'd got the money to do that every day. Nothing beats real police work but nothing beats giving the coppers the tools to do thier jobs. Now another one, a chap I know had his car cloned. The clone car driver obviously works in London 'cos this guy was getting dozens of summonses for dodging the congestion charge and vvarious parking offenses, driving in a bus lane, etc. He had the devils own job proving it wasn't him as he "only" lives 50 miles from Lndon and when a copper/traffic warden/rear facing camera has a red Rover 200 reg M111AAA or whatever it was down as the offender... Well, he had to get witnesses and all manner of cack. If it was a front facing camera whichcould pick out or even better reecognise the drivers face then he would have been saved a lot of bother as it would obviously not have been him. He couldn't stop it, it only ended when he scrapped the car. Now we complain nothing is done about stolen cars, imagine if a car was nicked and it could immediately be tracked by a number plate recognition and facial recognition camera system. You'd have the thief and a far better chance of recovering the car. Black boxes, much as they make me shudder, would be an even more effective method of tracking stolen vehicles. Cept for the fact we live in a country where we'd rather winge about the "civil rights" of crimnals not to be seen on CCTV and thus throwing the evidence out of court half the time, or would rather prevent real technology coming in to make us all safer just because you think it might get you 3 points on your licence... "Further crimminalisation" is just a symptom of people whho won't take responibility for their actions. You know the law, if you break it, and if you get caught, you get done. If its not checked, where do you draw the line. Some guy in one of the papers ran from the cops just because his tax was out and ended up knocking a kid down and killing her. Shoulda just paid the damn fine. The problem is we can't have a sensible debate in this country about what form of laws and policing and technology is needed to meet the needs of a growing population and increased technology and increased resort to violence by offenders. One side just pipes up "send them to jail for longer" and the other side just cries "ooh my civil liberties". The speed limits have not been seriously reviewed since the mid 1970s. Perhaps we aught to have a proper review - especially in the case of motorways. But the whole thing is derailed by the favct that everyone focuses on enforceent and cameras rather than the underlying issues...
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Last Edit: May 24, 2006 10:42:56 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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May 24, 2006 10:55:17 GMT
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Our roads and BIG BROTHERBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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May 24, 2006 12:13:20 GMT
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This "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" argument is fine if you're robbing banks or mugging pensioners, but when the "crime" in question is going a few MPH over the speed limit it seems pretty heavy-handed. Regular citizens are targeted for "crimes" because they're easy to catch, simple as that. And every "crime" they catch on camera bags them £70.
I really cannot see the justification in surveillance of every man woman and child incase they do something wrong. This is treating everbody as suspects, as potential criminals. That doesn't sound like a free country to me.
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May 24, 2006 12:30:43 GMT
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Depends how you define "free" really...
How many CCTV cameras do you get filmed on every time you go to a shopping centre, petrol station, even the corner shop? Sad fact of life is surveilance is there, everywhere. I have no problem with it, I've nothing (much) to hide.
I've done a few shifty things and I never got busted for them, if I had, you just have to take it on the chin.
You are making the classic mistake though. The point shouldn't be whether someone gets a ticket for a few MPH over the speed limit, the point is how are we suppsoed to police this country to catch the maximum number of people who are committing criminal offenses and currently evading the police. What speed the cameras flash at is a simple matter of turning a dial. Creating a situation where the police have the resources they need to pursue investigations of more complex serious crime and also protect us form low level crime without wasting their whole day on it, thats the debate which no politician wants to have in the open and the continual fear-mongering about "invading our privacy" with camera systems defeats before it starts.
Peope who commit civil offenses (like no road tax) also need to get busted, and I say that as someone whos done it before and will do it again, not regular, but when I need to move something and its not taxed what the hell, I know the risks. And the day I get caught is the day I get to pay for all the times I snuck one out without a valid disc. I'd rather I was at risk of getting busted for no tax brining home a new purchase or shifting cars between storage than some scrote gets to drive his car day in - day out without paying road tax without fear of getting caught.
On speeding - we know what the limits are, you can't really complain if you get busted for speeding whether its a camera, a guy with a radar, an area car or an unmarked car.
Again any time there is a chance of a debate on whether the speed limits we have ar eright the whole thing gets drowned out by bleedin anti-camera campaigners. The cops wanted to raise the motorway limit up to 85 a while back and litterally a day after this was in the press the whole thing boils down to a "scammera" wrangle and guess what, our limits are still set at 70 on the motorways... dumbasses shot us all in the foot there saying "well what if I'm driving at 90 I'll still get a ticket" like everythign in life is about their right to drive at 90 - probably from the sounds of it 2" off my back bumper...
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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