crazymonkey
Posted a lot
ummm....what was I doing again???
Posts: 1,981
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Jan 10, 2011 19:36:11 GMT
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Its the same case as the overweight trailers that was mentioned on here before (even though you're only towing an empty trailer you have the potential to commit a crime therefore you get penalised), its exactly the same method, even if the car isnt being used if its taxed its seen as being able to be used on a public road without insurance. they're gonna fine you because you could possibly commit an offence. Which yeah alright seems a good idea at first but there are some issues that need to be addressed. The main thing is they're trying to fine you for having an uninsured vehicle OFF the road which is where they should be
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whoever said dogs were man's best friend....obviously never heard of cable ties
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Jan 10, 2011 20:05:59 GMT
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so your mot runs out, but vehicles still taxed, the anniversary of your insurance comes around but because you have no mot you decide to leave the vehicle parked off road with no insurance, now you have to cash in the tax?
so say the mot is 1st of the month, and insurance 2nd of the month, you cash in the tax and sorn it, just lost out on the tax, then, you get car thru mot, payday arrives and you insure the car, however the cheque for the tax hasn't arrived yet and you need to re tax the car still in the same calendar month!!!!!
yet another rip off,
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retired with too many projects!
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Jan 10, 2011 21:07:40 GMT
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Its the same case as the overweight trailers that was mentioned on here before (even though you're only towing an empty trailer you have the potential to commit a crime therefore you get penalised), its exactly the same method, even if the car isnt being used if its taxed its seen as being able to be used on a public road without insurance. they're gonna fine you because you could possibly commit an offence. Which yeah alright seems a good idea at first but there are some issues that need to be addressed. The main thing is they're trying to fine you for having an uninsured vehicle OFF the road which is where they should be tax/test/insurance aside, if it goes under it's own steam, it could be used on a public road. Whatever next? If the engine runs, you have to remove it in case you fancy a drive? Or we fine you! You have 8mm of tread on a tyre, so here's a fine cos they are nearly illegal? Your tax runs out next month, here's a fine cos it's about to expire?
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CIH
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,466
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Jan 10, 2011 22:29:32 GMT
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so your mot runs out, but vehicles still taxed, the anniversary of your insurance comes around but because you have no mot you decide to leave the vehicle parked off road with no insurance, now you have to cash in the tax? so say the mot is 1st of the month, and insurance 2nd of the month, you cash in the tax and sorn it, just lost out on the tax, then, you get car thru mot, payday arrives and you insure the car, however the cheque for the tax hasn't arrived yet and you need to re tax the car still in the same calendar month!!!!! yet another rip off, I'll be honest I had to read that a few times and am still not quite there as it's a totally contrived situation to put yourself in. Putting in for an early MOT would solve the whole dates clashing thing ? Seriously people they're not making it easy but some of the scenarios described shows some people make it hard for themselves. Stressing about loosing-out on a couple of weeks of VED is also utterly ridiculous.
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I think that its just another pain in the backside.....we will comply, get used to it and get caught out unless we have evidence for everything,just in case it has to be proven to police or dvla etc. As said, with the right attitude and if you are genuine it is often easily sorted. This will not stop joe bloggs with no licence, job or any sense of responsibility, buying or "borrowing" driving without insurance. The way I see it for the future is that proof of licence will have to be recorded to the v5 (This is optional at the moment, this would help to link the person responsible to the car. The only way to stop an uninsured car is to physically shut it down once an anpr type device (picking up the now standard type no. plates) spots it, in that way nobody with any sense would bother with an illegal car! Now just think: one day cars will be fitted with ecu"s which will be the brain of the car, and this could be controlled externally, maybe by radio signals, so if it were travelling too fast for the area,or its documentation, insurance,tax, mot etc. was not fully in order.......it stops. Now this sort of technology may seem space age but then again.........
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so its guilty till you prove yourself innocent???
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theres more to life than mpg & to much power is just enough.
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Jan 11, 2011 11:32:27 GMT
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Stressing about loosing-out on a couple of weeks of VED is also utterly ridiculous. This, my friend, is the polar opposite of the extreme scenario reaction but also a poor idea... if we treat it as acceptable, it becomes acceptable. And I take it you don't have time to consider the multiple car driver. I have 4 or 5 cars taxed at any one time - that can total a GRAND of tax every calendar year. It isn't such a minor issue if I was in the position where I had to be "losing out a couple of weeks" every so often.
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Jan 11, 2011 11:36:20 GMT
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they're gonna fine you because you could possibly commit an offence. Which yeah alright seems a good idea at first but there are some issues that need to be addressed. The main thing is they're trying to fine you for having an uninsured vehicle OFF the road which is where they should be It doesn't seem a good idea at all. I REALLY like the point you've raised, which is that you are being punished by statute for a crime you have not committed. Unfortunately with the way it has been created, this reasoning has been obscured, but it's so obvious now you say it. And I thought the system was closed down at the end of Minority Report...
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Jan 11, 2011 12:06:07 GMT
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you can already be nicked for going equiped to commit a crime, thats nothing new, and speed cameras all presume you're guilty and you have to prove your innocence, its more paperwork I admit but I don't really see any issue, no one forces anyone to have loads of cars taxed at the same time, or loads on a SORN, and just because its been easy to buy and sell cars and sneak home without them being legal up to now is no reason to assume that it could carry on forever.
For a start I got my insurance document through the post this monring and it specifically says on the policy that
"The policy requires that you keep your car in a roadworthy, legal and safe condition with a valid MOT certificate when required..... then theres stuff about not leaving with keys in and windows open etc etc... Failiure to take care of your car and comply with security requirements will invalidate the insurance"
I will assume thats hidden in the terms and conditions of pretty much all policies these days, so those people who have been driving cars they've just bought home with no tax on were probably not insured anyway.
One other thing i just remembered, way back in my youth i was on a driving ban and was working on my car on my dads drive, behind closed gates, a copper we knew anyway wanderewd past (when they used to walk the beat) and he said i should take the keys out of the car or i could be nicked, even though i was on private property, if a police officer thinks you may drive onto a road you can be nicked, the same applies if your drunk, even sleeping in your car in a pub car park can get you nicked for being drunk in charge.
So having a car off road thats not insured or SORNed become illegal is really just bringing them into line with other ooffences that are already out there.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jan 11, 2011 12:45:28 GMT
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^^ yes but nobody in this thread will accept that as that would mean they will have to stop whining on about it and we couldn't have that could we ;D ;D
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Jan 11, 2011 14:18:54 GMT
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they're gonna fine you because you could possibly commit an offence. Which yeah alright seems a good idea at first but there are some issues that need to be addressed. The main thing is they're trying to fine you for having an uninsured vehicle OFF the road which is where they should be It doesn't seem a good idea at all. I REALLY like the point you've raised, which is that you are being punished by statute for a crime you have not committed. Unfortunately with the way it has been created, this reasoning has been obscured, but it's so obvious now you say it. And I thought the system was closed down at the end of Minority Report... Absolutely. It's not hurting anybody to leave a car off the road uninsured. With a car on PLG tax, and the fee to cash in a tax disc (which previously you DIDN'T have to do) you loose £25 (one month for the part month you cash it in, plus an £8 fee). If you happily go out and burn £25 on your drive, can you just give it to me instead? That's what's behind the 'overreaction'. That and the fact there will be loads of people getting caught out with this. People who have never heard of this. Did anybody hear about this on the TV or radio news? I didn't. I saw it online, and not everybody is online, or on Forums. I suppose there might be a leaflet go out with the V5 or tax reminder, but until that's applied for you won't know. I wonder how many people have taken their cars off the road (though taxed) who can no longer afford the insurance? They think they are doing the right thing by no longer driving, then they get a fine they didn't know they were up for. If they can't afford the insurance, they sure as hell can't afford the fine.....
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kenb
Part of things
Posts: 604
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Jan 11, 2011 14:56:06 GMT
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As it says on the government website, in the first instance you will be sent a letter giving you a chance to right your wrong. If you don't then you will be dealt with. No fines will be issued until you haven't responded to the letter or declared SORN or insured it.
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Jan 11, 2011 16:27:42 GMT
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Unfortunately, what the DVLA says and what it does are not always the same thing. Even now if you don't declare SORN, sometimes you get a nasty threatening letter, sometimes you they just cut straight to the fine, sometimes they do nothing. No consistency. OK so they send a warning letter. Like I said in the case of the person who can't afford the insurance, they then have to loose money on cashing the tax in, when they weren't driving about and breaking the law anyway. I thought the offence was driving without insurance, not being taxed, uninsured and stationary on private land.......
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jan 11, 2011 17:04:47 GMT
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...and just because its been easy to buy and sell cars and sneak home without them being legal up to now is no reason to assume that it could carry on forever... This isn't making it harder to sneak home with a car illegally though, this is making it harder to drive home legally. I don't see how it can be acceptable that they're randomly making us do more paperwork and pay more cash on a pointless new technicality that wont help anyone. (Whether it's thinly disguised as a crime preventative or not.)
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Jan 11, 2011 17:12:43 GMT
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The point is that while it may not help everyone, the general idea is that every car will be on the computers at DVLA and they'll know where they are and what they are doing, which will make it easier for them to pick up on anything that pops up as odd.
I just don't see this as an issue, i have mine insured even off the road, i have bought cars in the past that have been damaged by falling roof tiles, or stolen from yards etc etc and the owner is just trying to get back some of the cash they lost by not having the car covered, why would you want to have something expensive that your putting your heart and soul into unisured anyway? what happens if your driveway catches fire? or a block of ice from a jet plane hits it? flood damage? lightning strike? wind blows your car port onto it? cars sure as hell are not covered on your house insurance.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jan 11, 2011 17:32:14 GMT
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Act of god/nature is rarely covered by insurance, I bet you they would try to get out of it even if you are fully comp. It's nice to be able to have the money for that level of cover too, but not everybody has. As I said, if you can't afford the insurance, you are never going to have all singing all dancing fully comp cover in the first place. I can actually see cars getting scrapped over this, all be it because people misunderstand the whole thing, like the OP of this thread.
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jan 11, 2011 17:34:46 GMT
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They're on the database anyway though, and if someone's willing to risk driving without insurance, they're probably willing to drive without tax.
It's probably not an issue for a lot of people, but some of us cant afford to insure everything we own, life is a risk, if I insured every single one of my possessions, then bearing in mine how rarely things actually need claiming on, I'd be making a massive net loss within a year or 2. I quite like having the choice of what to insure and what to risk it on, choice is good, I don't like the government telling me what I have to do with my personal possessions unless it's going to directly effect other people, which me leaving my garaged, off the road, for sale car taxed and not insured sure as hell isn't.
I can't afford to insure my Scirocco while it's off the road and for sale, so the only option I have is to send the tax back, making it awkward for whoever buys it, as well as loosing out on a months tax, an admin fee and the 10% surcharge for only taxing it for 6 months. Yippee....
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Jan 11, 2011 17:52:14 GMT
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ok personal choice is an issue, cost should not be, its not a right to be able to own a car, if you cant afford something you just do without, if losing a months tax is to much then extra cars are probably beyond your budget.
I'm pretty sure most of us on here would spend a lot of cash on the right rims and tyres, or paint, or subway dangler thingies but soon as people think they may lose twenty quid on a tax disc everyones up in arms about it.
I'm skint, i'm not rich, i have health issues that seriously limit what i can do workwise (hence being on here all the time) thats one of the motivations in having cars covered by insurance even off road, i cant afford to lose the money i put into them.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Ads 19
Posted a lot
My old r19
Posts: 1,351
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Jan 11, 2011 18:11:56 GMT
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Can't beleive i am, commenting on this type of thread, its not like we can really do anything about it, law is being implimented and the dvla being the dvla will use it to raise yet more money. I will not declare sorn on a taxed car just because it is uninsured. I will fill in traders slips for now on, and if i get any from existing they can come chase me in court. Due to 3 courts being closed in my area, cases are already getting pushed back, I am still waiting to get 3 points from 2009 due to lack of court time and that was before the closures. scheduling of these low priority cases could see them never coming arround. on a small win, i had 18 sorn fines chucked out by magistrates court in one hit, the dvla could not prove the dates i'd been into the office and queryed the issues i was having at the time despite getting them to photocopy and stamp my letter to them. internal structure in a mess. I can see no reason for this law being in place, other than to reduce cost of inforcement by anpr or police. Are the dvla helping unemployment by having to process all these fines etc? If they get any more irritating i think terrorism is the only answer!
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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Jan 11, 2011 18:43:43 GMT
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It's not a case of not being able to afford to loose a months tax, it's a case of why the hell should I?
I'll loose out on an £8 fee, about £10 for the 10% charge for taxing for only 6 months, plus up to £16 for the months tax. That's £34, or to put it another way, that's 5 and a half hours of my life wasted in Halfords to pay for something there's no real reason for me to pay for.
Tolerable? yeah, I guess so, Fair? not even close.
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