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Dec 21, 2010 20:50:37 GMT
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In austria, france and germany you can drive your old motor day in day out - if you want to and are prepared to waive historic car tax 'benefits' and so on. OK you cant go into some city centres in Germany but the point there is you should not need to as the public transport is decent and affordable, so that seems fair enough to me.
i'm just gonna drive my car around till someone tells me i can't any more. it will be a good few years yet I think, and by then all internal combustion engines will be as relevant as steam trains are nowadays.
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1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 Mazda 929 Coupé 1986 Mazda 929 Wagon 1979 Mazda 929 Hardtop 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 1989 Subaru 1800 Wagon 1982 Hyundai Pony 1200TL 2-dr 1985 Hyundai Pony 1200 GL 1986 Maserati 425 Biturbo 1992 Rover 214 SEi 5-dr 2000 Rover 45 V6 Club 1994 Peugeot 205 'Junior' Diesel 1988 Volvo 760 Turbodiesel Saloon 1992 Talbot Express Autosleeper Rambler 2003 Renault Laguna SPEARS OR REAPERS
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Dec 21, 2010 20:51:57 GMT
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What is it we're up in arms about, is it the '1500km' bit? I cant think of anywhere in europe where theres any age-related restriction on mileage or even where one has been suggested. Ace himself says that it has not even been proposed. Isn't it a bit early to panic? The 1500KM hasn't been proposed yet but both Parliaments have been presented with that info already by FIVA ,who are lobbying for the changes. Their rules EXCLUDE modified ( not using correct period parts) vehicles from being accepted as Classic vehicles at all .They lobby on the basis of limited milage use if you read both their survet results and tecg specification for being accepted as classic. It is not so much what mileage but restrictions on use at all that is the issue. A get out clause for those that WANT to use their cars daily and pay their taxation would be the best compromise if it can't be stopped totally.
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Dec 21, 2010 20:54:59 GMT
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In austria, france and germany you can drive your old motor day in day out - if you want to and are prepared to waive historic car tax 'benefits' and so on. OK you cant go into some city centres in Germany but the point there is you should not need to as the public transport is decent and affordable, so that seems fair enough to me. i'm just gonna drive my car around till someone tells me I can't any more. it will be a good few years yet I think, and by then all internal combustion engines will be as relevant as steam trains are nowadays. IF they are totally stock , try registering a modified car in any of those mentioned. Travel into town ? What about if you LIVE in town ? EVERYONE should try to look at the bigger picture and how this affects the modifying scene in general not just how it affects them personally. 'You' may have to give some ground to get concessions for the whole scene.
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Last Edit: Dec 21, 2010 20:57:41 GMT by kapri
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ThePollitt
Posted a lot
Fix up, look... at that car on eBay!
Posts: 4,696
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Dec 21, 2010 21:33:29 GMT
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Keep me informed via pm or on cpollitt@unity-media.com and we'll make sure it goes to press.
I will of course extend this to Retro Cars too.
Chris
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Dec 21, 2010 21:44:56 GMT
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Exactly, which is why I asked how the classic/historical tax bracket ACTUALLY works in other countries. Right now that's the best thing to look at, as it will be what the UK will use to draw examples from. I'm not too worried about what might/possibly/could happen one day. If there's a consultation on this, it's a sign there will be a date set, but even then, by the time there's a consultation, the 'prospective' date is infact the actual start date, and it's a done deal. Remember the Congestion Charge and LEZ consultations? Restriction on use to 31 days days booked in advance ( Austria), limited use journeys by shortest route there and back prebooked ( Germany ,certain classes) restricted to use around your town with further distance pre booked ( France, just relaxed ) . That's some of the current ones we've been told about ,but if they are looking at an EC wide spec ( just like the new 2012 MOT ) there will be changes everywhere and Germany is ALWAYS held up as the Gold Standard. The key here is to alert MPs but especially MEPs that we are concerned NOW ,before negotiations start. OK but what you are missing here is the Teutonic love of making and following rules. Does Austria and Germany have as many ANPR cameras as us, and do they see them as the be all and end all of car/motorist driver rules? I notice France recently relaxed their rules, wouldn't be because nobody gave a light about them would it? Also I notice no mention of 1500 km as being a maximum mileage. I would like to see how our cash strapped Govt would be able to afford even a computer system to log all these trips too..... As for alerting MEPs to our displeasure, I can't see how that will stop them doing WTF they like, consultation, vote or whatever!
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Dec 21, 2010 22:01:07 GMT
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The 1500KM hasn't been proposed yet but both Parliaments have been presented with that info already by FIVA ,who are lobbying for the changes. Their rules EXCLUDE modified ( not using correct period parts) vehicles from being accepted as Classic vehicles at all .They lobby on the basis of limited milage use if you read both their survet results and tecg specification for being accepted as classic. Do we know why on earth FIVA have suddenly decided to lobby for this? Is there more to it than meets the eye, e.g. are there draft regs that are being discussed, and thus their lobbying is an attempt to lessen the blow on those they represent? Or is this all completely out of the blue, with nothing prompting it? It seems to be a very strange thing for them to suddenly push for..... I for one choose to use my 'classic' daily not because of VED exemption (in fact, it has been in daily use in my family from prior to the introduction of the original 25 years exempt class), but because it is what I want to own & drive, and still no modern car gets close in terms of practicality. However if fitting a modern low emission engine & its associated cats etc (Volvo themselves are now making some very frugal power plants which would be very suitable) makes it easier* to use daily, then I would certainly consider it, e.g. as has happened with the London LEZ. Aside from that though, are there any other precedents for such 'updating'? *whether that be due to cost or legal conformity
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ruffgeezer
Posted a lot
Attracts french tat.
Posts: 1,252
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Dec 21, 2010 22:03:20 GMT
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What about making the slogan more simple? A quick and dirty try, but it'd have more meaning with the url/ message beneath perhaps?
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Dec 21, 2010 22:16:55 GMT
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What about making the slogan more simple? A quick and dirty try, but it'd have more meaning with the url/ message beneath perhaps? Love that as well Only thing is it doesn't call direct attention to the current concerns.
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Last Edit: Dec 21, 2010 22:17:52 GMT by kapri
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Dec 21, 2010 23:05:48 GMT
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Just wanted to say, TBH if this gets in (when, but not for years I suspect) you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Take the free tax, you have to go online and inform whoever you want to pop down the shops at some point next month. Modify your car and attempt to regain the PLG or tax paying status, you potentially get the joy of going for a BIVA/IVA/SVA or whatever, and paying big for the privilege. It's as broad as it's long. Sod it, I hope they don't have the money to do it.....
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after reading 10 pages of this scaremongering i feel its time to comment.
ACE: why do you start these threads and trickle feed the information?
page one starts with the premise that modified historics would lose their historic status, and therefore free tax disc, 1500KM restricted milage, and pre-booked journeys
then as the thread goes on, and you are questioned more and more about these proposals, the cracks appear in your statements.
how about you come back, when firm proposals are before the european union AND UK parliament agrees to implement it, until then its just rumour and what ifs
don't panic folks, even if the worst case scenario WAS true, theres plenty of ways around this, and high percentage of the motoring public would be affected and therefore become active.
its like every couple of years since the 1960s the daily mail runs a story about road tax for caravans. Its BS, the daily mail knows its BS, but it sells papers and enrages caravan owning middle england.
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Someone just shot the elephant in the room.
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Modify your car and attempt to regain the PLG or tax paying status, you potentially get the joy of going for a BIVA/IVA/SVA or whatever, and paying big for the privilege. It's as broad as it's long. Sod it, I hope they don't have the money to do it..... I see where your going here with this fred, but there is no info as to if there will be an 'opt out' for the people in the middle. going by the info provided so far, A tax exempt MGB would be fine. A tex exempt MGB with a weber carb, sebring valences and many other mods would be fine if in period, but an MGB with a 5 speed ford conversion would fall outside the historic status as non period mod, but would not qualify for BIVA as it would retain too many points - what do these people do? A5 - waiting till this is in front of the gov and ready to go through will already be too late - if Fiva/FBHVC are releasing these 'ideas' or 'proposals', whatever you want to call them, then something has sparked it and a response needs to be swift and concise. I know these threads can get messy, but please don't put down the work that ACE are doing, it is not for their own benefit!
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wanted, 25th hour. Required daily, cash waiting
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Thank you GW .
Autofive, I trickle feed info because a huge post full of test will be offputting and trying to cover every possible scenario impossible . As 'threads', all the info contained in them can be followed to it's source via links on the ACE website , that is the opposite of scaremongering , which is based on wild rumour with no substantiation, what we provide is the insight into proposals , with proof , BEFORE it is a done deal. The ACE team give up large amounts of their own time monitoring rumours , tracing facts and then clarifying by speaking with those involved .
This is unlike some organisations this month who have run to the Houses of Parliament with complaints based on half facts and misinformation which ACE had already clarified and published over a period of 2 years. If they are going to stir it up they could at least do it over something that has a basis in truth and fact.
Non of this will affect me so I could easily ignore it. We at ACE have no financial incentive to spread doom or gloom or scaremonger ( which we never have ,the facts are there) , we do not scare people into signing up and donating money to us.
I have used SVA and will use BIVA for my motors. On a personal level I have been modifying cars for my own enjoyment for 38 years , I have enjoyed it and had a great social life, making many great friends all over the world via a shared passion. I'd like to see others still able to enjoy that freedom.
I could walk away and this proposal , transferred into law , woudl not affect me one jot.
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Last Edit: Dec 22, 2010 8:50:55 GMT by kapri
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I'll bring this back up to the top , I /we have NOT said 1500km WILL be the restriction, or indeed any restriction other than FIVA do NOT support, or recognise, frequently used cars for Historic Status.
"FBHVC( who represent British Historic vehicles ) is part of FIVA.
FIVA want ( and will get ) their rules as to what is a Classic adopted throughout Europe.
FIVA do not allow daily driven cars to be classified Classics . FBHVC cut lose daily driven Classics over 2/3 years back so will not support those who do.
The rest of Europe have restrictions of road use for Historic Vehicles .
FBHVC gave both our Government and EC a huge dossier saying Classics only do 1500 KM a year.
I know what I see when I put it all together ...opinions may vary."
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Last Edit: Dec 22, 2010 9:06:43 GMT by kapri
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after reading 10 pages of this scaremongering I feel its time to comment. ACE: why do you start these threads and trickle feed the information? page one starts with the premise that modified historics would lose their historic status, and therefore free tax disc, 1500KM restricted milage, and pre-booked journeys then as the thread goes on, and you are questioned more and more about these proposals, the cracks appear in your statements. how about you come back, when firm proposals are before the european union AND UK parliament agrees to implement it, until then its just rumour and what ifs don't panic folks, even if the worst case scenario WAS true, theres plenty of ways around this, and high percentage of the motoring public would be affected and therefore become active. its like every couple of years since the 1960s the daily mail runs a story about road tax for caravans. Its BS, the daily mail knows its BS, but it sells papers and enrages caravan owning middle england. It's funny that you should say that... This is exactly what was said back when ACE started talking about the implications of SVA/BIVA and the direction that was taking. "It'll never happen", "Stop scaremongering", "where's your evidence and facts" etc. Then stories started to appear about people having Log books retained 'Subject to BIVA'. We released the details about Engine swap regulations being tightend up "Nonsense, people said, I've got a friendly MOT man", well giuess what, That's a major issue in the classic car world right now. Ok, some of the initial postings are 'Dramatic', but they need to be, you have to grab attention somehow, would this thread have reached 10 pages if the posting had been "French classic ar organisation talks to EU about what they think a Classic car is"?...Don't think so somehow. Yes, these 'Proposals' are not law yet, they are not even being debated yet, but and it's a big BUT, The EU and national governments are not experts on everything, they rely on 'Inforned' organisations to advise them on policy making. If they are looking for a Europewide framework witin which to formulate legislation on the continued use of 'Historic' vehicles and the 'Informed opinion' tells them that such a vehicle is a 1961 MGA with red coachwork and a white hardtop and there are no contra suggestions, then that is what the legislation is formed around. A daft example, but you can see what I mean. Proposals for legislation around Chip tuning, that started as a 'Discussion' in the EU about standardisation of regulations. Guess who they talked to? Yup, BMW, MERC etc, it was only through noise from the enthusiasts that they realised that there were other elements to it and started to take other submissions. At the moment, all they are hearing from is FIVA/FHBVC and the 'Established' bodies, who have clearly stated that they do not consider modified, high use or 'Daily Driven' vehicles to be Historics. If regulations were formed which restricetd the use of such vehicles based on part of that philosophy, lets say a broad brush approach, which is the easiest way "A historic vehicle is one which is over 30 years old" and these atre the rules for that vehicle, it makes no difference if you don't fit the FIVA profile exactly, you're in the net. Don't think governments make broad brush legislation on motor vehicles? December 31st 1971 is VED free, Jan 1st 1972 is not, even though it's the same vehicle. The purpose of all this is not to say "It will all turn into a crock of s*it overnight, it's more to warn that if we don't start making noise now, it could be too late in a few years time.
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great work from ace there as always for getting the word out and i hope something can be done about this but sadly i can see classic cars and modified car being targets for the morons that run this and other cars for a long while to come yet as its one of the easiest ways to make themselves look good to brainless sheep that are the general public in the name of being "GREEN and the ENVIRONMENT" sadly we are the easy target . while we are on slogans and stickers how about for the modified classics a sticker that just says "100% recycled not 100% replaced" its to the point and highlights its green credentials as a vehicle that's been kept going and not just thrown out and replaced with an environmental disaster that is a new car
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what most of you seem to be missing is one big point.......
they are messing with our hobby again.....for no valid reasons other than to effectivly force us all to drive new cars. This is not about safety or the environment or even about preserving motoring heritage........it's about money....we all have the little secrets that older cars are actually greener, cheaper to own and drive and easier to fix.... all this means money not being made by any of the major manufacturers, service centres etc and makes a mockery of 99% of governments environmental policies. Legislation against what we do is gona continue till all we can do is trailer our cars to static exhibions. The stance of "if it's modified then BIVA" don't wash with me...BIVA will just get tighter and tighter till anything modified can't get through.. head back in the sand now!!
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Dec 22, 2010 10:42:42 GMT
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so paul, you are saying they are out to get us, despite being wrong, and we should ignore it?
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wanted, 25th hour. Required daily, cash waiting
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Dec 22, 2010 11:30:30 GMT
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using www.writetothem.com/ it just took me 30 seconds to copy, paste and send the letter to my MP. I'll post the reply whenit comes back. Fine details and speculation aside, i think it's clear that our hobby will continue to get squeezed in some way or another, so drawing attention to the facets of our hobby that non believers may be unaware of...charity runs, clubs, knowledge sharing etc etc can only be a good thing, as things develop we can hone the message accordingly. Knightmares, I like the slogan, there's no limit on ideas, so go for it, lets just get the ball rolling and keep it going. At the very least, having a single URL to get out there, even if it just redirect back to this thread, is a start. for copy and paste, edit as you see fit Dear x, [or To Whom it may concern] Following from Fédération Internationale des Véhicules Anciens' (FIVA) presentation to the Second Meeting of the European Parliament Historic Vehicle Group, I am writing to express my concern regarding the possible implications surrounding the implementation of FIVA's guidelines regarding the definition of Historic Vehicles. FIVA defines a HISTORIC VEHICLE as a mechanically propelled road vehicle • which is at least 30 years old; • which is preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition; • which is not used as means of daily transport; • and which is therefore a part of our technical and cultural heritage. There are many vehicles in existence which meet only part of this definition. These vehicles are over 30 years old, and many are preserved and maintained in an historically correct condition, but many of them are in use as a means of daily or regular transport. At present, many of these vehicles in the UK are registered using the 'Historic' taxation class, giving the benefit of a Vehicle Excise Duty rate of Nil whilst not imposing any restrictions on the use of the vehicle. I am concerned that the implementation of the FIVA definition of Historic Vehicles may cause restrictions to be imposed on the use of any vehicle over 30 years old - preventing their use as a means of daily or regular transport - so that such vehicles meet the definition of an Historic Vehicle. FIVA recognises the existence of older vehicles not meeting their definition of Historic Vehicles - the update provided to the FBHVC by the EPPA (FIVA's Lobbying service) states that it is attempting to explain "why historic vehicles should be treated differently to all other vehicles, especially to all other ‘older’ vehicles". I appreciate that providing a means for owners of older vehicles to "opt-out" of Historic status would remove the privileges associated with owning an Historic Vehicle - notably the common reduction in the rates of VED paid - but many would welcome the opportunity to use their vehicles as and when they see fit. Any restriction on use - be it a mileage cap, a permit system or detection of regular use by other means - would remove any practical aspect of owning a "classic car" over 30 years old, resulting in vehicles that currently ‘earn their keep’ during everyday use not being able to do so. This would result in many owners being forced to abandon their hobby due to practical considerations such as storage space and increased per-mile running costs. Following the introduction of such restrictions, the values of affected vehicles may be reduced. Owners of older vehicles like myself preserve a small part of the country’s motoring history at our own expense, mainly for our own pleasure but also for the benefit of the general public, and we ask for nothing in return. Many owners form and join clubs to celebrate the history of their vehicles, and through these clubs provide support to the community through charity events, galas and motoring shows. By driving our vehicles on a daily basis, we present a rolling trip down memory lane for our fellow motorists, a small nostalgic break in the monotony of modern travel. I, along with most other classic car owners, ensure that our vehicle/s is/are legal and roadworthy at all times and I believe I take a greater pride in my vehicle than many drivers of more modern vehicles. Vehicles that would not be deemed worthy of a place in a museum or private collection are given another chance to live on in the hands of a genuine enthusiast, who will often spend more than the vehicles market value to maintain it in legal and roadworthy condition. This in turn supports the wide range of classic car spares and restoration business - most of which are small firms of the sort driving the economy in this harsh economic climate. I can see no real benefit to restricting the use of older vehicles, only increased bureaucracy with the associated costs that inevitably follow, and a restriction of personal freedoms that are currently enjoyed by so many. I once again ask that you oppose the imposition of any restrictions to the use of older vehicles, and allow the classic car movement to both continue its support of small businesses, communities and charities and enjoy the vehicles for what they are. Your sincerely, [or Yours Faithfully, if using 'to whom...'] X
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Dec 22, 2010 12:05:16 GMT
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You know what kev, despite what you may think, over the many pages of this thread so far I think you have made real progress in changing people's perceptions. What needs to happen now is to put some sort of action plan together. We're not talking about a knee-jerk idea put together in 5 minutes, but a strategy to help get the right people onside and use the media to 'our' advantage. I'm formulating some ideas and I'll PM you when I get the chance.
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Dec 22, 2010 12:25:17 GMT
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Absolutely spot on letter Pablo ,you're a star!
Now everyone on here needs to get it sent to MPs and MEPs. Everyone can also help by pointing people this way on other forums they frequent . Give them the precis version I've posted above as an easy way of explaing what's going on as well. If they want to know what to do , copy and paste Pablos post above.
This is EXACTLY how we got the SVA /BIVA test in thr first place, as opposed to the TOTAL ban that was about to happen then ( 1976) ...people power.
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Last Edit: Dec 22, 2010 12:27:38 GMT by kapri
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