Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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The motoring gutter...Dez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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been there, done that. ;D trade insurance makes it all go away though lol! I'm 26 and have unlimited age, unlimited mods trade policy for £670 a year. it was actually cheaper to take this policy than renew the classic policy I had on a 190e?! the problem I seem to have, is no matter how many (or few) cars I have, I rarely have more than one that works and is road legal sound familiar to anyone?! it very rarely goes up to 2, then one usually gets sold!( usually followed by the other one promptly breaking.........) I currently have (counts on fingers) about 7 and a half cars, of which 1 is T+T, and works aparts from the wheels breaking. I have another that is tested but itsnt UK regd so I cant really drive it (must get round to that before the test on it runs out ) one is vaguely together enough to get a test with only a couple of weeks work, but the rest are in so many bits they're months away. its been like this for about 8 years now. even going as high as having 24 at once, ive never had more than 3 cars that work at the same time, ever!!
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2010 9:50:45 GMT by Dez
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Footman James allow anything 15 years and over onto a classic policy with no no claims, which gets you into a world of much more reliable daily transport. They also do stuff that's 12-15 years old on a 'future classic' basis again at very reasonable rates.
I'm 28, and recently I've had: 1994 BMW 740i - limited to 5000 miles a year - £270 fully comp, 1997 BMW 318is (future classic) £260 fully comp
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1967 Morris Traveller 1971 Series IIA Land Rover 1991 Golf GL 4+e 1992 Corrado G60 1986 E28 BMW 528i
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10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,253
Club RR Member Number: 204
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The motoring gutter...10mpg
@10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member 204
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Nov 11, 2010 10:04:33 GMT
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Good read as always Ak, I love your perspective..
Thank god for my trade policy, 2k a year well spent methinks...
Not just for the fact that I can buy and sell cars willy nilly, (no exclusions or limits on my policy as long as a single vehicle isn't worth more than £250k) so if I want a skyline or a scooby or just something expensive like my Mrs's newish Accord I can just do it.. when I think about it, it's so nice never having to think about premiums..
Plus it covers all those small worries, like customers cars stored in my workshop (up to 500k) and cars being transported on the trailer ect and the ever threatening third party liability..
When I became a student though and made the buisness part time, out of interest I called Norwich Union to ask how much to insure my daily Range Rover 4.6, I'd just had two crashes (never had an accident in my life and have two as soon as nipper is born an I got 2 hours sleep a night) and they wanted more than my trade policy.....
I find a better way of approaching the whole motoring gutter thing is to have the cars you drive Rangie, Camaro, Transit and t'missus modern turbo weasel Honda, then have your projects P5b, Mustang, then have a car or two on the side that you buy and sell for profit, if you make sure these are cars you actually like, and you not just being a motor trader, you'll find you can own cars you like but wouldnt normally pay out for or couldnt justify to the missus, plus if you buy a lemon or make a mistake your stuck with a car you would like to own anyway! in the last year I've had a Golf gti, an Aston, a Volvo 960, a mustang II (obv), a Scorpio Ultima, a Polo Coupe, a Land Rover, a Merc a Capri and a Toyota all cars I've owned, enjoyed and sold on a for a small profit, thus keeping my car car collecting and 'must buy it now' side happy and keeping my Mrs happy as it generates a few quid..
Sometimes it all falls down though, I bought my Camaro following these principals, but I loved it so much I just kept it till my long suffering Mrs just accepted it was part of the household, had to put some hours in to pay for it though..
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2010 10:08:37 GMT by 10mpg
The Internet, like all tools, if used improperly, can make a complete bo**cks of even the simplest jobs...
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Nov 11, 2010 16:28:57 GMT
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G40jon I have checked out most of my purchases well enough but sometimes it seems the Gods are against you. Like being screwed over twice on a transmission rebuild, despite taking recommendations on where to get it done on both occasions. Like a timing wheel stripping its gears and wiping out a Cadillac engine without any warning and wiping the motor out etc. but doubtless you'd have spotted those coming and avoided them by your superior skillz to spot what faults may occur 18 months down the line. I was with Footman James, they put a 9 year old Lexus on a classic policy. Fair enough. But the premium went up by £400, and they adjusted the terms [no agreed value, some other benefits removed]. If I'm paying more than like £125 for my insurance I feel like I'm being robbed! Their “modern classic” policies also cost more than their “real classic” ones do. My wife likes to keep an eye on these things too... Especially if I am actually paying for road tax as well... I have to admit that this has gotten a lot easier in recent years. Back in the day it was a nightmare. These days so long as you are with a decent insurer they will try help you out. But you will still pay more to insure a modern car than a “real” classic. I have used trade policies in the past but you don't get the same cover you do with a classic policy, its a case of horses for courses. I also would have had difficulty proving “trade use” for a while, which is often a requirement when you make a claim. I've seen a lad come a cropper trying that in the past. Recently I've probably been trading enough cars to qualify on that basis... I think this is all about doing things on a tight level of resource. OK “just go out and lease a brand new car” is fine if you have the money to do that, and if you want to do that. If I had the kind of income that I could cover the lease on a new car I'd just buy a really nice example of an old car that I liked. I think the thing is that when you only just can afford to run what you run you end up making compromises on the quality of what you buy. I would love a mint '67 Mustang fastback with a 390 in it but my budget means I drive a slightly iffy '74 Mustang II notchback with a V6 in it... I've spent about all I can afford to buy the car, so repairs are all over and above my budget. Plus of course I have a Trans Am I am working on and that is also all “unbudgeted” repairs... Thus if a big bill comes in for a blown up transmission or something I am scuppered. As some will already have noted – the more cars you have the less chance you have of them working. Its a simple case of resource spread too thin. I know this. But I don't change what I do because when I try it feels wrong! I have turned down company cars with 2 jobs in the past because what do I want a Vauxhall Vectra sitting on my drive costing me tax allowance when I could be driving a Cortina for “free”? I think the gutter, or at least proximity to the gutter is all about being compelled to try and do too much. The victory of enthusiasm over realism. Or, as I prefer to call it, “living”.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Nov 11, 2010 16:41:01 GMT
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Are you guys with trade policies actually traders? i rang a couple insurance companies last year and they said unless i was a VAT registered trader they would not offer trade insurance, and if i did obtain it and made a claim they would need to see documentry proof of working with cars for the whole period the insurance was running, if your not actual traders where do you get your insurance?
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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The motoring gutter...Dez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Nov 11, 2010 16:56:48 GMT
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i am trade, although the policy I'm on is actually pretty lax on what you need to prove youre trade compared to some. you don't need to be vat regd. in fact i think the only stipulation is that you go through 10 cars in a year. hell, ile do that in a couple of months, lol!
just a big wad of parts/consumables/tool receipts is more than enough to prove trade use, anything over a couple of k a year id say. a premises address helps too, like a unit, etc.
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rob0r
East of England
Posts: 2,743
Club RR Member Number: 104
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The motoring gutter...rob0r
@rob0r
Club Retro Rides Member 104
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Nov 11, 2010 17:08:45 GMT
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Dez, who are you with? I'm losing money hand over fist at the moment cancelling policies and starting new ones.
Next year I should have at least 4 cars on the road... I would have to deliberately buy cars to sell though, normally I just buy them and never sell them!
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E30 320i 3.5 - E23 730 - E3 3.0si - E21 316 M42 - E32 750i ETC
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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The motoring gutter...Dez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Nov 11, 2010 17:27:29 GMT
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buying to break would count as trade too just add the car to the policy, then break it. nothing wrong with doing that, even if theres no nope in hell of it ever getting a test or you taxing it. its not illegal to insure a non roadworthy car, although it would obviously be illegal for you to drive an untested or taxed car on trade insurance (unless to a pre-arranged MOT) just the same as it would with a private policy. I'm with norton tradesure, but its underwritten by tradewise insurance.
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2010 17:34:22 GMT by Dez
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10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,253
Club RR Member Number: 204
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The motoring gutter...10mpg
@10mpg
Club Retro Rides Member 204
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Nov 11, 2010 17:31:46 GMT
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I think the gutter, or at least proximity to the gutter is all about being compelled to try and do too much. The victory of enthusiasm over realism. Or, as I prefer to call it, “living”. Truest words I've heard in a long time, I'm always one to give something a try or 'just go for it', because I'd rather have a great memory/story/experience under my belt than a veil of faux security that could be removed at any moment anyway by anynumber of faceless organizations.. Doing 'something' is nearly always better than doing nothing.. Are you guys with trade policies actually traders? I rang a couple insurance companies last year and they said unless I was a VAT registered trader they would not offer trade insurance, and if I did obtain it and made a claim they would need to see documentry proof of working with cars for the whole period the insurance was running, if your not actual traders where do you get your insurance? Yeah I'm trade, buisness bank account/credit card/premises/company vehicle ect, though I'm not Vat registered yet (I've been avoiding that like the plague) though to be fair my insurers (Footman James) have never asked me to prove it, when I first rang around for a traders policy loads had tons of stupid stipulations about what you could/couldn't own and drive Tradex and the like were just dreadful, I do a lot of work on Astons and there is a lways an Aston or 2 knocking around my workshop and every 'common' policy I tried excludes Astons, Bentleys, M spec bimmers, AMG's 'performance cars' ect which I couldn't deal with, every trader I know is with Footman James so I went with them, just so much better than the rest in my experience.
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2010 17:33:18 GMT by 10mpg
The Internet, like all tools, if used improperly, can make a complete bo**cks of even the simplest jobs...
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rob0r
East of England
Posts: 2,743
Club RR Member Number: 104
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The motoring gutter...rob0r
@rob0r
Club Retro Rides Member 104
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Nov 11, 2010 17:34:52 GMT
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buying to break would count as trade too just add the car to the policy, then break it. nothing wrong with doing that. I'm with norton tradesure, but its underwritten by tradewise insurance. Wow, that's some what viable. This year though I've only bought 2 cars , I might have to do something about that... Also, you mentioned modifications... Would this include "extreme" mods such as rollcages?
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2010 17:35:47 GMT by rob0r
E30 320i 3.5 - E23 730 - E3 3.0si - E21 316 M42 - E32 750i ETC
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Nov 11, 2010 17:42:08 GMT
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I've got a brand new Citroen C1 VTR+ leased for the Mrs for £100 deposit, £100 a month, 3 years warranty, no mot's, i'll not put tyres on it while I have, it does 65mpg and is group 1 insurance. It always starts and has lots of airbags. If you average it out on fuel and repairs you'll not run a car cheaper unless you're handy with the spanners and friendly with the local scrappy. I agree it's not for everyone but you know what you'll spend every month as it won't give you any un expected bills so you can spend the money on something you actually like, like my Rover. It keeps you out the gutter.
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Nov 11, 2010 17:44:05 GMT
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I'll give Footman james a ring in the morning, i dare say i can qualify as a part time trader, might have a word with the mum in law as she has units at her address, would save any grief at home as we're council.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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The motoring gutter...Dez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Nov 11, 2010 17:47:32 GMT
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Yeah I'm trade, buisness bank account/credit card/premises/company vehicle ect, though I'm not Vat registered yet (I've been avoiding that like the plague) though to be fair my insurers (Footman James) have never asked me to prove it, when I first rang around for a traders policy loads had tons of stupid stipulations about what you could/couldn't own and drive Tradex and the like were just dreadful, I do a lot of work on Astons and there is a lways an Aston or 2 knocking around my workshop and every 'common' policy I tried excludes Astons, Bentleys, M spec bimmers, AMG's 'performance cars' ect which I couldn't deal with, every trader I know is with Footman James so I went with them, just so much better than the rest in my experience. I found similar. I'm covered up to 35k indemnity, much lower than yourself, but much higher than I need(hopefully), but the real problem I had was age of vehicles. I work with a lot of 20s and 30s based hotrods, and finding anyone who would cover over 25yrs old (15 yrs in most cases) was a right 'mare. they also count as high performance which from what you work with, I'm sure youll know most insurers don't like especially on trade, they count as kit cars which is the same, plus the majority class as imports as they're LHD which is the same. 99.9% of my work is vehicles that are at least 25 years old and over half are imports in one form or another, so this was a real problem. tbh, people who work exclusively with old, imported, highly modified, high performance cars must make up jolly pain in the backside all of the polices they sell though, so its suprising theyll over cover at all.
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2010 17:50:11 GMT by Dez
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Nov 11, 2010 17:51:51 GMT
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well i got around this problem a different way....
i had a heavily modifyed mk1 golf... regular insurance companies wanted 1600+ (21 years old)
so now i have a trade policy, so i can swap, sell and change as many cars as i want (at least 8 a year) i can do what ever i want to them... as long as its taxed and tested, or on its way to a mot station, I'm insured!!
i also have demo cover (insure a friend)
and the age of the car makes no difference!!!
all around happy days!!
although it isnt cheap, but when i work up a few years of it it will be... and it means that i can have as many cars as i like (girl friend will let me park on the drive) with no extra cost!!
but my argument to her is, "the more cars that i have the better value my insurance is" and this works!!
retro
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
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The motoring gutter...Dez
@dez
Club Retro Rides Member 34
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Nov 11, 2010 17:51:53 GMT
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rob- absolutely no limits at all on modification. scratchbuilt cars are fine. only thing is in event of a claim, id have to be able to prove was it was worth- i.e. id need at least 3 independent valuations.
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Nov 11, 2010 18:33:02 GMT
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It keeps you out the gutter. but it means driving a Citroen C1... I just couldn't. Whats the get out payment at the end? Thats what always kills these when I look at them. I did look at one on a larger car advertised at £250 a month with no deposit but after 4 years you suddenly had to front a final payment of £8K.... Spending £100 a month would leave me with no money for petrol. I'm poor. £100 a month if I did have it - that would buy an "average" P5B Rover...
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Last Edit: Nov 11, 2010 18:36:39 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Nov 11, 2010 18:53:37 GMT
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Couldn't bring myself to spend 100 a month on a car, other than consumables and tax/insurance i'd expect trouble free motoring for a year or so from a well chosen 300 quid runabout, my current vitara cost 100 quid and needs about 30 quid and half a days work for the MOT, i shall expect it to work at least over the winter without any trouble and then into the summer so i can take the roof off it, i will be spending a a few hundred quid on knobblies and taller springs, so any mechanical faults it develops will be annoying and delay fun in the dirt.
I think i'm in the the same boat as Alistairk, money is tight, we have to save up to eat out, buying a tyre for a car means going without something else.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Nov 11, 2010 19:43:05 GMT
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buying to break would count as trade too just add the car to the policy, then break it. nothing wrong with doing that. I'm with norton tradesure, but its underwritten by tradewise insurance. Wow, that's some what viable. This year though I've only bought 2 cars , I might have to do something about that... Also, you mentioned modifications... Would this include "extreme" mods such as rollcages? Rob, a bit pf ringing round should see you happy. As a further example, my trade policy (and being honest your requirements and circumstances are pretty similar to mine) doesn't care about mods or amount of trade etc etc. When I first got it, I explained I just had a lot of cars and wanted one policy for the lot. Pretty much worked out that because i broke the odd one, I could have trade for that. Now of course it's full on trade but they don't ask for proof of trade, vat numbers, anything like that, and half the cars I get are sans logbook so it's good that I don't have to prove how many i've bought & sold/scrapped. The one thing to watch is that most don't want to cover more than 3rd party losses on over 20yrs old, so make sure to argue on that. I got my previous 3 years NCB transferred on to the trade, and 2 years named driving before that to count for another year of NCB, and all in all it's pretty reasonable. 100% justifiable if you add up the cost of a few cars ( I was paying £300 per policy so it doesn't take long adding up if you're doing three or four cars!
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Nov 11, 2010 19:46:05 GMT
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Sounds like an interesting thread. Just too many words for my head, as it's currently full.
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Nov 11, 2010 19:52:36 GMT
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It keeps you out the gutter. but it means driving a Citroen C1... I just couldn't. Whats the get out payment at the end? Thats what always kills these when I look at them. I did look at one on a larger car advertised at £250 a month with no deposit but after 4 years you suddenly had to front a final payment of £8K.... Spending £100 a month would leave me with no money for petrol. I'm poor. £100 a month if I did have it - that would buy an "average" P5B Rover... It's actually really good other than being an ugly little spud. There's no final payment. It's a lease with a guarenteed future value so you just give it back after 2 years and get another one. I'm just saying it's an alternative to running a car that may detonate at any time especially if you don't have skillz or time to sort it. You then put some love into your retro rather than constantly battling just to keep it roadworthy so it can get you to work every day.
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