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Oct 28, 2010 14:08:57 GMT
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I am supposed to be towing a vehicle from High Wycombe to Bristol this weekend. The trailer I was supposed to be borrowing isn't available any more I do have the option of an A-frame but wondered what the legality is with using one? Before you answer, please not that the vehicle has no engine or gearbox, no registration plates and weighs a fair bit less than 750kg. I will, obviously, be using a proper tow vehicle and also using a trailer board etc.... I have also A-framed quite a few vehicles in the past but just wanted to chek on the legality when taking into account the points mentioned above about the vehicle itself. Can this be classed as a trailer and therefore does this make it 'legal'??
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Oct 28, 2010 14:16:29 GMT
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Dunno the answer, sir. But you're free to borrow my trailer, or my cube truck.
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Oct 28, 2010 14:19:13 GMT
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It all depends who you ask. If you wrote the same letter to the DVLA, the police and VOSA I'd bet money you'd get three different answers. It's all up to interpretation and providing you're polite and not exceeding train weights (which I doubt you will be with a <750 kg vehicle that doesn't need brakes) I reckon you'd get away no problems.
A pal of my A frames vw T4 vans up and down the country every other weekend throughout summer, Sometimes towing using a T4, sometimes a T5. They are obviously well over 750kg and they aren't usually taxed and often not MOT'd.
He's never been stopped in 7 years to find out exactly how illegal it is.
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Oct 28, 2010 14:23:04 GMT
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They're for recovering, taking broken down vehicles to a place or repair same as towing dollys, cars no matter what state (or weight) they're in, they're not trailers in the eyes of the law (load of complex construction and use stuff)
I don't think u'll get away with saying "yes office it just broke down, one min fine, next min, no engine" lol
By rights it should be on a trailer I'm affraid.
Although, to be honest so many people do it every day the chances of having a problem? slim
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kevfromwales
Posted a lot
the conrod's REALLY out the block now!
Posts: 3,909
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Oct 28, 2010 14:41:56 GMT
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agreed ^^ - I was told it would need to be under 750kg's, with tax and test and insurance - they are for recovery work, so that's why the AA use them
I have also heard that they have a 60 mile radius of use from where you are based - but all you need then is to divide your journey into 60 miles chunks...
I'd like to get this clarified, as it's how I'm intending to transport the pop when it's done
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Almost on the road: b11 sunny breadvan, e36 tds, 325i skidcar,
nearly there: ford f250 tathauler, suzuki alto, u11 bluey
not for a while: ford pop, 32 rails,
not in this lifetime: ruby, '29 hillman
''unfortanatly I'm quite old and scruffy and in need of some loving. my drive shaft needs a new boot....''
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kevfromwales
Posted a lot
the conrod's REALLY out the block now!
Posts: 3,909
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Oct 28, 2010 14:44:54 GMT
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also if it has no reg plates, I presume it's some sort of untaxed vehicle, so watch out for that, as if all wheels are on the ground, it needs to have rent on it
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Almost on the road: b11 sunny breadvan, e36 tds, 325i skidcar,
nearly there: ford f250 tathauler, suzuki alto, u11 bluey
not for a while: ford pop, 32 rails,
not in this lifetime: ruby, '29 hillman
''unfortanatly I'm quite old and scruffy and in need of some loving. my drive shaft needs a new boot....''
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Oct 28, 2010 14:49:24 GMT
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Nigel Bickle has just had a lengthy discussion with a VOSA chap on this, might be worth PMing him?
As I understand it though for what you want to do it'd be illegal. Whether you'd get away with it is down to luck and any Police / VOSA people knoing the law...
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Lawsy
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,615
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Oct 28, 2010 14:55:09 GMT
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no answers on the above, but as a word of help..
bloke on our road is a HATO - highways agency traffic officer (cop wannabe) and he was telling me that the old bil no longer patrol the M4... (especially the bit past reading) unless they are called for an issue..
might help if you do chance it..
my only knowledge of these was a very long winded debate on another forum that ended up being 30 pages of drivel - but the outcome was pretty much - if its a proper set up and doesnt exceed the towing weights of the tow vehicle its ok, if it exceeds then an a-frame that operates the brakes is required..
as to the stories about emergency use etc, I didnt really pay attention, but seem to recall what kev says is right...
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Oct 28, 2010 14:57:52 GMT
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I have used 'A' frames for years and never had a tug. There is a big BUT though as if there is no engine and gearbox fitted you will almost certainly have steering problems with the 'towed' car as when it has the engine and gearbox fitted it will 'self steer' around corners and islands etc but without the weight in the front end it will probably not straighten itself up when coming out of bends leaving the wheels partly on lock to some degree causing the towed car to be all over the place. By far the best option is to hire a proper car transporter trailer, or a towing dolley which lifts 2 wheels off the ground but they are quite hard to find.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,926
Club RR Member Number: 174
Member is Online
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A-frame towing questionstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Oct 28, 2010 15:14:53 GMT
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I'd do as I said mate and weld a piece of box section with a tow ball socket onto the front of the chassis then tow it with the front wheels off the floor. I know what car it is and it would be a doddle to do.
Matt
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Oct 28, 2010 15:24:56 GMT
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Having no engine and gearbox makes no differance, its not the vehicle/trailers current weight, its the max permissable weight, its the same as the fact you cant drive 17 ton lorry on a car license even if its empty and weighs less than 7.5 ton.
If a trailer has a max gross weight of over 750kgs it needs brakes and being a car it will be plated for way more than that.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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robg2
Part of things
Posts: 815
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Oct 28, 2010 15:57:49 GMT
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^^ This one is correct.
With a trailer board on it, it becomes a trailer. If plated max weight is over 750kg (which it will be) then any wheels touching the road have to be braked (which they won't be). AND you can't exceed the max train weight of the tow vehicle. Recovering with an A-frame or dolly is an exception to the above, but it's meant for recovery only. If the car to be towed has no plates / tax / MOT etc then you're on dodgy ground.
Having said that, lots of people do it so the detection rate can't be that high.
If it was me, I'd hire a trailer.
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robg2
Part of things
Posts: 815
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Oct 28, 2010 16:00:13 GMT
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On a connected theme, I'm not sure what the legality is if you've made the trailer yourself and it has no manufacturer's plate. In a really sticky situation you might be obliged to prove how the trailer meets C&U requirements then.
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Oct 28, 2010 16:02:39 GMT
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Even if you fit a braking device like you get with some A frames they don't make it legal to tow because all trailer wheels have to have equal breaking force and car brakes are not set up that way, newer trailers also need auto reverse brakes.
Just info that is, forewarned is forearmed as they say.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Oct 28, 2010 16:06:20 GMT
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Having no engine and gearbox makes no differance, its not the vehicle/trailers current weight, its the max permissable weight, its the same as the fact you cant drive 17 ton lorry on a car license even if its empty and weighs less than 7.5 ton. If a trailer has a max gross weight of over 750kgs it needs brakes and being a car it will be plated for way more than that. Sorry, I maybe should have made it clearer. The overall weight of the car with full running gear is far less than 750kg so well within the unbraked weight. I was only mentioning the lack of powerplant/drivetrain because someone once mentioned it to me that if there is no means at all of powering the vehicle (i.e. no engine & box) then it can be classed as a four wheel trailer as long as it is displaying trailer triangles and the reg of the tow vehicle etc...which means not needing tax & mot. I am trying to source a trailer, but asked about the A-frame option because I have immediate access to one of them and the whole A-frame thing seems such a grey area that I wondered if anyone on here could actually clarify.
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Oct 28, 2010 16:53:13 GMT
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The overall weight of the car with full running gear is far less than 750kg so well within the unbraked weight. Weighing less than 750kgs is not the issue, the car will have a plated maximum weight, which includes the cars weight, plus its carrying capacity, THATS the figure that has to be under 750kgs. For instance a Reliant TW9 pickup weighs about 400kgs, but it had an 800kgs carrying capacity, so its max gross weight is 1200kgs, heavy enough that it would need brakes if towed as a trailer even if its empty.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Colonelk
Posted a lot
Posts: 3,742
Club RR Member Number: 83
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A-frame towing questionColonelk
@colonelk
Club Retro Rides Member 83
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Oct 28, 2010 17:00:14 GMT
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/\ WHS Plus what are you getting from my neck of the woods? If youre about and its not saturday AM, feel free to pop by for a cuppa haha But yeah, sadly I think its defo illegal as a vehicle without tax cant have any wheels on the floor. Shame I don't have my trailer license or I could of towed it up next playday for you.
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Oct 28, 2010 17:07:29 GMT
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I never had any troubles with Honeyfield down in Bedminster for trailers of allsorts. Not the cheapest but not the most expensive. Twin-axle solid bed with hydraulic tip and a winch was just shy of 110 quid for the whole weekend's loan. that was a few years back, but it was a good Bryan James unit and was stable. Even had a good spare on it and the lights all worked! Their prices have gone down actually www.honeyfieldtrailers.co.uk/car-transporter.htm85 quid is cheaper than a fine.. --Phil
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Last Edit: Oct 28, 2010 17:18:38 GMT by PhilA
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Oct 28, 2010 17:10:40 GMT
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A guy on another forum got busted for sitting and steering while towing a car to a scrapyard, no tax and no insurance equals points IF the wheels are on the deck:( Shame I didn't see this earlier as I could have got a definite from VOSA tech as I was speaking to them earlier today.
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purplevanman
Posted a lot
Way too orangey for crows
Posts: 3,830
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Oct 29, 2010 21:01:01 GMT
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Another point possibly for future reference, isn't VOSA losing its funding so it will have to find its own money? that will mean a lot more reason to pull everyone :/
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Welder, fabricator, general resto work
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