|
|
Oct 16, 2010 20:01:34 GMT
|
Mitsubishi Delica L400's and Mk1 Pajero's (possibly Mk2's?) have a splined steering column.
They have a UJ both ends and slide approx 5">8" depending on which combination of top/bottom you use between the different models.
They slide really easily and sound like the kind of thing you are after. I might have some spare ones kicking around if you're interested?
|
|
|
|
|
dw1603
Part of things
Posts: 591
|
|
Oct 17, 2010 11:26:23 GMT
|
Re Hydraulic steering
We can list reasons why it couldn't or shouldn't be done till the cows come home, but the basic principal is proven. If there was a need for such a system then it would be developed into a safe, workable, reliable and legal mechanism without much delay. You can bet that the Japanese have done research on it already.
Back to the main subject, I'm pleased to see I'm not the only one who thinks this is doable. I recently threaded a newly restored Model A Tourer through a single lane girder bridge with the owner sat beside me, that was nerve wracking! I have been in sailing boats that steered more precisely. DW
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2010 11:52:36 GMT
|
On the other hand, there's a big difference between an ancient, often worn out steering box, and a modern one. You can't really say that cars like Carlton, E34, W124 etc. are unstable... Of course, it's possible to do a R&P steering on a solid beam axle if it's done the way described here, and it was not the idea of the thread to make it a R&P vs. steering box debate... I just wanted to say that a steering box aren't neccessarily a bad construction, you don't need R&P for a good steering...but of course it will help, and are better in every possible way.
|
|
194? Willys Jeep MB 1965 Volvo 544 Special 1968 Opel Rekord 1975 Opel Kadett Estate 1985 Mercedes-Benz 230E 1985 Datsun 720 King Cab 4x4 diesel 1997 Volvo S70 2.5SE (ex. "Volvo544special65" - changed to more reader friendly username. )
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2010 12:12:40 GMT
|
poprodder - we've done this exact conversion with my dad's model Y special. I'll get some details for you later if you want - can probably get you some pics too if it would help. Joe edit: have a look here if you want more words of encouragement on the subject! www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=403023hi joe, that would be great, i've searched the hamb already was just looking for info in this country, did'nt want to ask on nsra as it would of turned into a one sided bunfight, did'nt expect it on here!!! it would be most helpfull to see pics, how rack was mounted to beam, type of rack etc. many thanks chris.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2010 12:15:37 GMT
|
There isn't a problem mounting a rack to a beam, loads better than any steering box ever!. We made a sliding joint for a mates car, just a long splined section so the female part could ride up and down. However if you get the steering column right you can do without it. If you lay the rack so that the output shaft is coming out horizontal, then make the first section of the steering column the same length as the (split?)wishbone, it doesn't need to slide. Matt thanks matt. wishbone is'nt split at moment, could be in future but for now trying to keep it pop looking!!! chris.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2010 12:16:43 GMT
|
Mitsubishi Delica L400's and Mk1 Pajero's (possibly Mk2's?) have a splined steering column. They have a UJ both ends and slide approx 5">8" depending on which combination of top/bottom you use between the different models. They slide really easily and sound like the kind of thing you are after. I might have some spare ones kicking around if you're interested? hi, cheers, a pic would help to start with. many thanks chris.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2010 20:37:23 GMT
|
Chris,
ok, a brief outline of what was done......
We used a rack from a Peugeot 106, as it was a nice compact rack with long control arms but the pinion was well clear of the sump of the engine. The control arms were cut off and some ford (fiesta) arms sleeved on, which were mated to some ford (possibly escort mkII, but they were all fairly similar) track rod ends- which were the right fit for the hubs.
The splined shaft and sliding collar came via a local engineering place who ordered it in specially; I'll try and find you some better details when I speak to them later this week. I think the shaft we had was 18mm internal, but it was a bit overkill for the job - as it was special order we had to just take a guess at size. Shaft was around £15, the collar £25, plus the dreaded and a bit of shipping on top.
I'm assuming from your name that you're doing this on a pop, by the way, so some details may not be relevant if you're not!
The steering column was machined at the top, by a mate, to accept a standard bearing and a new lower bush was made and fitted. This was then cut off just after the bulkhead and a UJ fitted. The collar was turned to fit into a sleeve joined to the uj and the splined shaft then was attached to the rack via another uj.
This set up gives about 3" of travel in the shaft and in use it seams to only actually move around 3/4 of an inch.
The rack is bolted to the beam via a couple of simple brackets.
To further sharpen up the front end, a panhard rod was also added.
These two mods have transformed the handling of the car, we couldn't recommend them enough!
Another option you could look at would be to use a single arm steering rack and retain the drag link on the axle setup.
My mum has some photos on her old laptop which she said she'll dig out for me this week, so I'll forward them on when I get them.
Hope this helps!
Joe
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2010 20:43:58 GMT
|
thank you very much joe, very very much appreciated.
be good to see the pics.
thanks chris. ps. yes it is a pop, standard axle on unsplit wishbone.
|
|
|
|
dw1603
Part of things
Posts: 591
|
|
Oct 17, 2010 23:07:40 GMT
|
^ I have found an instance of a car with a solid front axle and a rack mounted to it, with a plunging joint in the column. Colin Chapman used this configuration on the lotus 58 (the front beam is actually a de-dion axle) but as far as I can see the car never raced and Lotus never tried it again (and nor did anyone else) Didn't know about the Lotus 58, so I followed your lead and googled it. Interesting. I'd say that the front axle is more of a beam than a de-dion, but I love the way the rack is incorporated into it, very Colin Chapman. This was back in the early days of very wide racing tyres, and it was thought that there would be an advantage in keeping the wheel perpendicular to the tarmac and gaining maximum tread contact. On paper, a de-dion or a beam axle would have an advantage over a double wishbone set up, especially as the cars still had a lot of suspension travel at that time. Presumably the advantages weren't quite so clear cut in fact. I suspect that it was more than just the steering rack location that killed it off though. DW
|
|
|
|
RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
|
|
|
Most moderns with an adjustable steering wheel position should have a splined joint in them. I know for a fact that b5 VW Passats have a nice smooth splined sliding joint, which should be ideal for what you're looking for, and B5's are ripe in the scrap yards at the moment. I can imagine a lot of other moderns having a similar set-up though.
I don't know if this will apply to you or not at this stage, but it might be worth doing some research into the effects on ackerman angle when a steering rack is not mounted in line with the rod ends. (assuming you're mounting the rack directly to the back of the beam, I can imagine the rod ends being further rearward than the rack).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2010 21:54:23 GMT
|
Most moderns with an adjustable steering wheel position should have a splined joint in them. I know for a fact that b5 VW Passats have a nice smooth splined sliding joint, which should be ideal for what you're looking for, and B5's are ripe in the scrap yards at the moment. I can imagine a lot of other moderns having a similar set-up though. I don't know if this will apply to you or not at this stage, but it might be worth doing some research into the effects on ackerman angle when a steering rack is not mounted in line with the rod ends. (assuming you're mounting the rack directly to the back of the beam, I can imagine the rod ends being further rearward than the rack). thanks for sliding joint info.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2010 22:00:31 GMT
|
this one a sliding passat?
|
|
|
|
Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
|
|
|
poprodder,
why specifically are you insisting on going for the rack? do you have any experience with beam axle suspension at all? i don't mean taking it apart and putting it back together again, i mean actually designing a steering system that works flawlessly, or engineering out other peoples mistakes that have lead to bad handling. i do, its my job, i build cars like this every day, and take it from me, youre creating yourself a lot of work for no reason.
the principles of steering geometry are the same wether the wishbone is split or unsplit. what you are trying to prevent is bits moving where they shouldnt due to steering inputs or feedback. i think this is why youve got the idea about the rack? to isolate suspension movement from steering input?
first, replace your kingpins. on a beam axle, this is where most 'steering play' comes from. then sort out the beam mounting. the stock wishbone and spring is fine, but i would recommend some kind of lateral location, indeed its essential if you will be running cross steer. a panahrd is the traditional way, but to be honest its big and ugly and get in the way of other things, a simple track locator that bolts through the beam and to the crossmember will do the same job in half the space and be almost toally hidden.
i would then use a longitudinal trackrod with the steering box mounted to the chassis rail., as the trackrod will run more or less out of the way along the chassis rail. if you cant fit this in, get a modern-ish recirculating ball steering box, and itll will be tight and precise- all the guff about steering boxes always having play is a load of curse word, and mostly stems from old worm and roller type boxes, which were redundant by the '60s. the rack system youre plannnig is unneccessarily large, over complicated and ugly compared to a decent steering box setup.
use a short, straight solid steering column with no. UJs. they're where most steering play comes from, are unsightly and in my view, overly complicated.
do all this and your steering will be tight and precise. for example, my model A is a beam axle on split wishbones with cowl steer, and no componenet is newer than 1968. yet is tighter and more precise than nearly every IFS/rack setup i see through here, all because its designed correctly!!
|
|
|
|
Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
|
|
Oct 19, 2010 17:54:17 GMT
|
call it sh1t if you like, then come down and see my car and then tell me its balderdash i wouldnt claim it if it wasnt true, there isnt more than a mm of play in my entire system, steering wheel to wheels. I'm only offering advice as i have experience in this field. take it, ignore it, do what you will, but I'm not sure why youre taking offence?
|
|
|
|
stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,926
Club RR Member Number: 174
|
|
Oct 19, 2010 22:52:02 GMT
|
Take it somebody deleted a post as that makes no sense? I agree you can get the steering box to work well, it's still easier to fit a rack though. There's no geometry errors to look at apart from ackerman angle as that's the only thing you can change.
Matt
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dez, I'd take ( friendly) issue with steering boxes being as good as a rack. I also have built many cars with IFS ,both wishbone and modified mac strut, and also steering box systems on stockish 40-60s motors as well as many rods ( including top show back in the day ) . Boxes / beams can certainly be made to to work and handle well but due simply amount of joints , as in tre's, included in any box system , forget kingpin wear etc and the looser clearances internally on a box it will never be as precise as a rack. I retain steering boxes in my 40-60s for myself as I actually want the different driving experience they give. However on an aesthetic level vs function I always go for IFS on a full fendered rod and beam on open front end. The rack conversion that Poprodder is considering will work and was popular in the 70's over here .My only concern would be the ratio of the rack compared to the box so as not to make it too twitchy. Another option to fit a rack is NOT to mount it on the beam but on the chassis and use it as a slop free steering box by using ONE ARM ONLY . A bulkhead mounted Vauxhall /Saab rack would be my starting point . I'd alter the centre steer fitting to realign it with the original steering box and geometry and it would probably need to use the drivers side pick up point to maintain original geometry .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My worry is wear of the sliding joint. Normal columns have the sliding joint for a "one off" telescoping in the event of an accident and not every time the suspension moves. In my opinion any custom made column would have to include Phosphor bronze bushes (kingpin items ?) and a grease nipple at least. Remember also that such major modification to a vehicle safety will probably mean an IVA test.
Paul H
|
|
|
|
Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,784
Club RR Member Number: 34
|
|
|
yeah poprodder did have a bit of an outburst, he PMed me and apologised though then deleted the post, everyone can have a bad day/other influences getting at us, so I'm not one to hold it against him kev, i kinda half agree with/ see what youre saying. i definately agree on IFS on full fendered only, and with a beam axle, i always perfer a box, just cos of the looks of it really. what youre saying is with a box system youre basically always gunna have two more TREs, yes? my point is that in my experience the column UJs introduce more play into the system than the TREs do- as TREs are made to pretty tight tolerances these days, whereas UJs don't seem to be as good. i think youd struggle to mount a rack to the beam without at least two UJs, if not 3, so its swings and roundabouts, play wise. modern steering boxes have come a long way, granted 30s, 40s, 50s and even 60s ones were quite dire, but after that, they really started to get quite good. well, non-american ones anyway!! some manufacturers stuck with them right up to the late 90s- mercedes for example. i still think the only reason they went to rack was space and cost restraints. these boxes are really good, as are mazda b2000/ford ranger, bay window camper van (my own car uses one of these) 1303 beetle, ive used all to good effect. if chris is still dead set on a rack, the last option you mention would be best i think- a single sided rack mounted tucked up behind the crossmember, single drop link down to standard steering rod hole on pop trackrod, then steering shaft run up inside of chassis rail to hide it as much as possible. paul H i agree totally, and youve just rememinded me- mazda b2000s also have a self contained sliding joint, its sealed, grease filled, and very fine splined so as little play as possible, with about 3-4" of plunge on it. would be perfect for something like this, especailly as mx5 UJs and column bolt straight up to it id still run a box though
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
'Another option to fit a rack is NOT to mount it on the beam but on the chassis and use it as a slop free steering box by using ONE ARM ONLY . A bulkhead mounted Vauxhall /Saab rack would be my starting point . I'd alter the centre steer fitting to realign it with the original steering box and geometry and it would probably need to use the drivers side pick up point to maintain original geometry'
Can you explain this a bit further, you lost me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 20, 2010 10:45:06 GMT
|
Guess it depends on the u/js Dez, I'm using Borgeson, 32 off them , on my POS and that together with a rebuilt box has fair less play than the previous box with one OEM style u/j in it . ..then again they should be good at nearly £70 each !! On a conventional box and idler set (late 50's early 60s, some 70s style) you have two outer links with 2 joints per link , then the drag link uses a bushing both ends plus bushing in the upper half of the idler arm and some play in the steering box itself .Plenty of potential for wear there compared to a 4 joint rod set up. As you know even Beetles only use 4 tres and they drive well on a (correctly set up ) box. We all have our preferences
|
|
|
|
|