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Hello I thought I would share my plans for my major project for third year of of my automotive engineering degree. The plan is to take Bruce my front wheel drive and try and turn it into an accurate replica of the one of 4wd rally cross car. Now to do this obviously it needs to be 4WD which will require constructing a transmission tunnel and replacing the rear suspension set up. I believe the original used a shortened 2000 rear axle and I wondered whether I would be better suited using a dolomite one. Also what propshaft was used or was it a custom one. I will also need to reroute the exhaust.
For the interior was it standard or stripped out?
I believe the original car was a TC and mine is not. So I will at the very least need a TC manifold and throttle arrangement. Ideally I want an original TC engine for the faster cam and other differences.
Last thing does anyone have any photos or techinical information on the original car, as I would really like to get the paintwork right.
Paul
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Transfer box? What are you thinking of using for that? Things like prop can be custom made but for the rear axle you're first port of call is to find one with the same diff ratio as the front (or a matching front diff to the new rear)
IVA - are you prepared for that?
Re-routing the exhaust is going to be the least of your probs. This isn't going to be a case of just sticking in a prop, an axle and some mnetalwork on the floorpan. I know you're doing an engineering degree, but this is quite a major piece of work which will cost more than a few pounds. Can you afford this? (based on certain previous posts, I can only assume the true answer to this)
If you really want to be tackling an accurate replica then you might want to be getting every detail of the original. Triumph clubs, museums.....places that are more likely to garner the answers you need before even thinking of going ahead with this. It's not going to be as simple as you make out in the original post....
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I know it will cost a lot of money but has been budgeted for and is by no means a short term project. The course pays for a lot of materials and has most of the required equipment. Transfer box was custom and I intend to use cnc equipment to make it from scratch. The reason I said triumph 2000 rear axle was that was what was used originally thus the diffs must have the same ratios. I hope that by following the original car specifications that an IVA wont be a problem. I do think though that the end product will end up Q plated
I have contacted the triumph clubs and put this post on a few triumph forums as well.
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Steve
Posted a lot
Making progress in small, easy to handle chunks of awesome
Posts: 2,036
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This aint a cheap OR easy conversion! Have a look here: 9700vc.blogspot.com/2008/10/4wd-triumph.html for some info on the factory 4WD 1300, they used the transmission from a prototype called a "Pony" but chances of actually finding one of those gearbox's I would imagine to be ZERO Steve
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Last Edit: Jun 1, 2010 19:42:10 GMT by Steve
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RetroMat
Posted a lot
Column Shifting!
Posts: 3,444
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I beleve Canley classics had a few of the 4x4 gearboxes NOS! for sale a while back. As for transmission tunnel it would be worth talking to Lewis on here as he had a 1500 FWD that had been converted to rwd sprint spec.
Also I think the TC version of the 1300 only had 5bhp up on the 1300, this would probably just be down to the carbs. So you might as well keep the current engine and tune that.
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Last Edit: Jun 1, 2010 19:52:53 GMT by RetroMat
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I beleve Canley classics had a few of the 4x4 gearboxes NOS! for sale a while back. As for transmission tunnel it would be worth talking to Lewis on here as he had a 1500 FWD that had been converted to rwd sprint spec. That would be a major turn of luck. Although I don't want to make life to easy for myself or the tutors will reject it as a project. Its got to be HARD.
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RetroMat
Posted a lot
Column Shifting!
Posts: 3,444
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I see your point there, also presumably the original 4x4 gearbox wouldnt take too much power so would be worth redesigning the internals as part of the project?
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Last Edit: Jun 1, 2010 19:54:52 GMT by RetroMat
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The reason I said triumph 2000 rear axle was that was what was used originally thus the diffs must have the same ratios. I don't think it'll be as straightforward as that, assumption is the mother of all.... etc. I hope that by following the original car specifications that an IVA wont be a problem. I do think though that the end product will end up Q plated I'd love to see it done, but really do A LOT of research! No point in doing it to fail the Iva and have to start again!
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these is difference between hard, and nigh on impossible. even with access to cnc machines, do you reall think you can make up a transfer box that will work ? there is a reason people charge crazy money for gearbox kits etc. a more sane solution would be to take something like a subaru justy 4x4 and graft your shell onto it, or a shortened sierra 4x4 etc
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Before you put too much time into the idea try tracking down a gearbox as the whole project would revolve around finding one. They were a special item and ultra rare. Also with being autocross they probably don't have a centre diff so not suitable for road use (unless you like snapping prop shafts like twigs every few miles)
Paul H
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if its an engineering project anyway, it may turn out easier to pick up a suitable donor 4x4 and build a full tube chassis and suspension set up to take the runnng gear and hang your cars panels on it, it would still be difficult enough as a project and probably more relevant to a future employer that you built a whole car than "just" modified an old one.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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We have to make gear boxes and diffs for the formula student car every year. Some unis buy in but ours makes all parts bar wheels tyres and engine. We also have equipment that operated to a 1000th of a mm tolerance and measuring equipment. I will be using CAD software to design these parts and use Katia, solid works and autocad which are industry standard software
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If the Autocars Dragoon was built in any great numbers in Israel, maybe you could source the 4x4 bits there? Just don't go by boat... It does seem an insanely difficult project, especially seeing as not completing it wouldn't be just a case of being a bit disappointed, it could balls up your degree too. As others have said, do LOTS of research and make sure that you can get all the parts, are technically competent enough to pull it off, have all the facilities, tools and equipment available, and stand a chance of finishing it when it needs to be finished. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious, but make sure you have a cat in hell's chance first!
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i know all about tolerances, i work in the aircraft industry What are your time constraints though ? do you have enough time to actually build it ? there are alot of factors you wont be taking into accoutn, if you feel you can then the coice is ultimately yours
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Time constraint is simple. Working full time on the project 36hrs a week minimum. Project starts september and must be finished by the 31st of may the following year. I will be doing a lot of research over the summer and presenting the idea to the tutor at the beggining of next term. I then have a full year to source parts and draw up plans. If at any time during the year it looks to be impossible then I will put the project on hold and finish it long term but not for uni.
back up project is to find a DAF 55 coupe and make a 555 replica which involves replicating the 4 wheel drive variomatic and turbocharging/supercharging the engine. A lot simpler as all parts should be available and it is by nature a far simpler system.
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More info from these threads Apparently the original car had different diff ratios front and back!! Thus wasn't suitable for road use and could only work on a loose surface. Obviously this would have to change in mine I'm not having a trailer queen!! The car also used a le mans spitfire engine with twin webers and there are some people saying it had a TR5 box with an extra output shaft. I thought it had used the same box as the prototype triumph pony. Anyway have some pics that have been found The last photo shows the underside quiet well after that the project was dropped and no more where made. The cause was a fractured trailing arm in the triumph 2000 derived rear suspension
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Even if you have the same diff ratios F&R, you still wouldn't be able to use the car on tarmac/grippy surface without a centre diff in the transfer box (unless you're going to make it selectable 4WD??)
I think you need to look into how 4x4 systems work quite a bit more before you start deciding that you want to make your car 4x4.
As I said in my original post, it's nowhere near as simple as you are making out. Your enthusiasm is to be commended, but at this stage, your lack of knowledge about 4WD in general and also the uncertainty of the finer details of the original car (in order to make an 'accurate replica') is telling me that this is a project idea too far.
I'm all for stretching ones self and setting challenges that can reward, but then there is stretching yourself too far which will only lead to frustration and ultimately, failure. I hope, for your sake, that it's not the latter....but the early indications are kinda pointing that way.
Please don't think I am being harsh - I have seen (all too often) people tackle great sounding projects only to become disillusioned & frustrated when they realised that they had bitten off more than they could chew. I hope you are able to prove me wrong.
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This is very much in the preliminary stages of find a project and research whats involved. This thread is part of the research that needs to be done before I can decide whether the project is feasable. Selectable 4wd would be an option but I would prefer it permanant as thats where it should be. Before I can even think about the center diff I need to calculate what the ratios should be for all 3 diffs. That may mean changing the front as well. There will also be work to do to the drivetrain beyond the diffs to prevent axle wind up. Also when there are 4 people working on it each person will work on a specific area. But as I said the research needs doing first and as the project is still 2 years away I'm starting it with lots of time to find out all the facts. This is not an off the whim project and will be carefully researched before any work even design work is started
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Obviously you want your final year project to be difficult, but you don't want it to be impossible. Having just completed a 3rd year Electronic engineering group project it's amazing just how much longer everything takes than you expect, even working long hours on it - especially where you have to show that you've though about everything from a proper engineering POV. Exploring all the possible solutions does take a lot of time in the planning stages - you want to make sure that the solution that you come up with is the 'optimal solution', in the words of my group project tutor. I think this especially applies to final year individual projects (I'm on a 4 year MEng BTW).
I think the worst possible outcome would be to over-stretch yourself and end up with a half-finished car. After all, if you were to get most of the work done, but not finish your transfer box, you wouldn't be able to finish it since you'd loose access to the workshops. And your marks would suffer too.
Bear in mind that the original probaly had a small team working on it for quite some time, and they used parts already available rather than building from scratch. That said, I think it could be a good project, if you really apply yourself and create a really well engineered result.
I think that you should create a car in the spirit of the orignial, but with better specifications, meaning: matched axle ratios; a proper transfer box; suspension that doesn't break; and well-developed modification to the floorpan. This should result in a car that is usable, capable and reliable. 'Just' creating a straight replica doesn't show outstanding engineering skill, IMHO: while it would be a good technical excercise, it wouldn't demonstrate your problem solving skills to their best effect, since they were mostly solved on the original.
Now, I don't know the true nature of your course, but I image that you have to be able to show the reasons behind making the choices that you have. For example, don't choose 2000 suspension just because that's what the original used - after all the original suspension was clearly not up to the task. So do something better, and make sure that you can show that it's better - maybe it's stronger, and maybe it suffers less from axle tramp.
For the floorpan modifications you can probably model them after a Dolly's pan, since that is RWD - however, you'd probably get a better mark if you run some basic FEA showing that your modifications haven't weakened the structure - even better if you can get it stiffer than original.
Your car will need an IVA. You will be modifying the monocoque, which automatically looses the right to the car's current identity.
Overall, don't overstretch yourself. However, if you are sure that you can do it:
-make your decision based on proper engineering foundations, not on what the original project team for the 4x4 1300 did. -make sure that you consider the consequences of your decisions. -build the car to bIVA standards. -make sure that you know what you want from the final car, and why you want to do this project so that you have a final aim in mind. -Do it well.
You will run into problems - how you deal with them is what your tutors are really looking for, I'm sure.
If you do pull it off this could be a rather nice car - historically styled inside and out, but with relatively modern handling and 4x4 performance - and could make a great final year project if you approach it properly.
EDIT - your latest post arrived while I was writing that huge essay up there^.
As it's a group project (4 people working on it together) you should probably make sure that the people that you'll be working with are happy doing the work on your car - group disagreements are horrible and stop all progress when they happen.
And it's most emphatically *not* 2 years away. It is, in fact, only a year and a summer holiday away - and it's amazing how time flies when you're having fun over the summer and working hard throughout termtime. The end of the project is 2 years away.
And one final thing - you have 4 people doing, let's say, 40 hours a week. You probably have about 24 weeks of uni in which to do the work, allowing for the summer holidays. So you have approximately 3500 man-hours of time on the project. When you conisder how long each bit will take, that's not long - and that doesn't include any theoretical work.
I don't know if you have any other modules to take in your final year, but I can't imagine that this project is 100% of the mark - so don't forget to take into account the time you'll be spending on the other stuff too. Doing 40 hours of project work a week doesn't leave much time for anything else, IME.
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Last Edit: Jun 1, 2010 22:41:41 GMT by jrevillug
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lada niva's use a compact stand alone transfer box with centre diff & are permenant 4x4, input side is via a 6 bolt doughnut same as ford .
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theres more to life than mpg & to much power is just enough.
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