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May 16, 2010 15:28:21 GMT
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Ok, other than Mercedes and sundry rare Perkins conversion Consul and the like I'm struggling to think of any older (preferred tax exempt) diesel retros. Who knows the gen?
Don't bother suggesting the Oldsmobile 350d Delta etc...
Thong is, most of those early diesel really are like tractors. So what are the upgrade options without serious fabrication?
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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May 16, 2010 15:50:11 GMT
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Opel Rekord D 2.1 diesel, put in a 1.7 turbodiesel from an astra\vectra and youre golden? Probably picking up this for work duty sometime this year
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RetroMat
Posted a lot
Column Shifting!
Posts: 3,444
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May 16, 2010 16:10:24 GMT
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Morris Oxford Diesel:
great for autotesting!
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diesel retro - talk to me...BenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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May 16, 2010 16:30:39 GMT
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I'm struggling to think of any tax-exempt diesel cars excluding Mercedes... Land Rover SIIA / SIII? Range Rover? Erm... that's all I got... I suppose the diesel engines of this era are what earned oil-burners the rep of being slow and agricultural which has stuck until only recently! Still if you can put up with slow and agricultural, it's all good! With regards engine swaps, I love the idea of a modern turbo diesel, but hate the thought of plumbing one in (or buying one... they seem to fetch a lot!) There was a guy in Derby at a Rover breakers who had a Perkins-powered Rover P6.
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Last Edit: May 16, 2010 16:35:50 GMT by BenzBoy
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May 16, 2010 16:56:00 GMT
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hmmm... I wouldn't want either the agricultural driving experiance or the complexity of a full on trans-generational engine swap. Hmmmm.... That Opel Diesel idea would be golden if it werent for the fact there are probably precisely zero of them in the UK... I like the thinking though. A chap I knwo did a Sierra TDi into a Mk2 Consul btut it was apparently a ball aching amount of work to do. Pinto on LPG may be the better option there... an 80s Merc 240D or 300D would seem to be the oil burning obvious choice. I seem to recall the MPG not being "all that" on them though. Which is kinda missing the point.
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Last Edit: May 16, 2010 16:59:13 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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93fxdl
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Posts: 2,013
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May 16, 2010 17:03:00 GMT
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read a magazine article a few years back about diesel conversions and one of the ones featured was a traction avent fitted with (i think) a bx diesel and five speed as far as i can remember custom drive shafts and mounts and that was about it an idea would be to look at petrol engines which have diesel equvalents ie pinto which has been replaced by the zetec so possibly a conversion to fit a zetec could also utilise a tdci mondeo engine the perkins prima (motego) was popular for conversions as the engine would outlast the body ttfn glenn
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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May 16, 2010 17:20:24 GMT
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As a youngster we had Spanish neighbours. The man of the house, Juan, was a brilliant mechanic. He dropped a Merc diesel into a Rover P4 in the late 60s and in the mid 70s he got hold of an early Rover P5, converted it to diesel using a Bedford TK lump and did the drive to Spain and back in it. He swore by diesels in regard to their durability, economy and sheer torque and driveability. A retro diesel conversion, to this end, wouldnt be too sacreligious.
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May 16, 2010 17:20:45 GMT
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Did I dream it, or was there a Diesel MK2 Grandad?
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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May 16, 2010 17:22:36 GMT
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Did I dream it, or was there a Diesel MK2 Grandad? Yes there was. Not overly common, ridiculously slow and 99% of them were taxis.
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May 16, 2010 17:23:20 GMT
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Can't believe no one has said Landrover.
Not particularly comfy, but they are just about as retro as they get.
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93fxdl
Posted a lot
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May 16, 2010 17:24:51 GMT
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Did I dream it, or was there a Diesel MK2 Grandad? i think you are right as i seem to remember something about them, but only in "taxi" spec as in poverty with all the luxuries taken out but i could be wrong (probably) ttfn glenn
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May 16, 2010 17:29:28 GMT
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Warning - Sweeping generalisation ahead!
I reckon that there are roughly 4 generations of Diesel engine: Pre-1985, 1985-95, 95-00, 00-.
I'm going to exclude every diesel engine before about 1985 - they were all NA, all slow, all harsh, and many weren't great on fuel by modern standards.
1985-95 engines are more powerful more economical and more often turbocharged than not. However, they still kept the mechanical fuel pumps and often had cylinder blocks compatible with RWD cousins.
I'm going to exclude the 95- engine too - the electronics make a converion more complex, and they rarely have a RWD option available. 00- engines have common rails, meaning much, much more complex requirements.
Merc diesels will run forever, but are not enormously powerful or economical. A 5-pot 300D would be good, but IIRC they only get 30-odd MPG. 300TD is the estate - a turbo is denoted by a separate badge, and only came with an Auto. I know you like Autos, but if you want MPG manual is the way to go.
There aren't many decently retro cars with decent diesel engines though. So engine swaps are, IMHO, the way to go. A few candidates that I know of are listed below, along with RWD gearbox options.
BX or Pug 405 diesel will go onto an LDV Pilot 1.9 gearbox for RWDness. They are simple, reliable engines, and were one of the first to not be deathly slow. 1.9TD from a 405 is the most powerful - 90BHP, plenty of torque, and will do 300,000 miles if treated right. Blows HGs if not treated right though. 2.1 from 406 an option, but IIRC they have complex EFI.
An alternative would be a Land-Rover 200TDi, bolted to an LDV or Rover gearbox (R380 or LT77) with a Disco bellhousing. More power, more torque, supposdly reliable and good on fuel. Expensive engine though - they are the favourite swap into Series landys. 300TDi has fly-by-wire throttle, so too complex.
One of the last simple diesels was the Rover L-series, as featured in the 'bubble' 200 and 400. Go for the engine from a 220D, not a 220Di - the 'D' has a simple mechanical pump, more leters mean it's got EFI. Being a development of the Perkins Prima family, they should bolt onto an O-series bellhousing - possibly even a B series bell housing with some ingenuity. They have been fitted to MGBs before now - more power, more torque and much better MPG than stock.
People have ahd good results using bigger (2.8) Nissan diesels in 4x4s, but I don't know much about them TBH. Datman is fitting a 4L NA Nissan diesel to his Range Rover, but it's a huge engine that would be too big and heavy for a car.
The BMW 2.5 diesel (also fitted to Range Rovers and Vauxhall Omegas) has been used successfully, but has horribly complex electronics.
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93fxdl
Posted a lot
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Posts: 2,013
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May 16, 2010 17:30:42 GMT
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supprised no one has mentioned the indian morris oxford (mahindra) there are lots of vehicles in india using diesel power (usually a peugeot lump) there was (i believe) a sd1 rover using pug power and i seem to think someone built a 7 replica using diesel power
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Rob M
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,915
Club RR Member Number: 41
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May 16, 2010 17:31:24 GMT
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I suppose the super super rare Marina diesel would count, again, as slow as but durable. I'm guessing that fitting a modern diesel into an old diesel would throw up the same issues as a petrol conversion in that there is a whole lot more electrickery to take into account. While older diesels are slower than their modern counterparts you can play with the pumps a tad and, unlike, say a 1600 crossflow, you are going to be able to drive the gonads out of it all day long without it breaking ( in theory). I know you could get a Renault 18 diesel ( nearly bought one back in the day) I reckon that, if you could actually find one you would be able to retro fit it into an older renault like a 5 or 16? Not that there would be any point whatsoever...
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Rob M
Posted a lot
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Club RR Member Number: 41
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May 16, 2010 17:37:38 GMT
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There was an article floating about on the WWW, basically a few pages out of, I think, Car magazine, which saw a journo go over to Germany and try out a Golf Diesel. This was IIRC, about 1975? Basically, the journo was in raptures, the car could pull 115MPH around VWs test track, acceleration was as good, if not better than petrol equivillents and, as a concept, it was deemed to be the future of motoring, which in some way it was, I suppose. I don't see why an old oil burner doesnt have the potential to be modified for better performance than, say, a Rootes engine. Its just not really been done too much, thats all.
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May 16, 2010 17:47:06 GMT
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its gonna be easier to buy a tax exempt petrol can and drop in a Diseasel than it is to find a rare version of an old car in good nick I reckon, plus you'll have the advantage of being able to choose a decent engine, why derv anyway? they don't work out much cheaper to run these days.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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May 16, 2010 17:55:59 GMT
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Diesels didn't really get good until the late Seventies/early Eighties with the Peugeot/Citroen ones some of the best. Not tax exempt, but a diesel Pug 505 would be a serious weapon, as would a Citroen CX Turbo 2. BX makes more sense as there's less to go wrong. I really like mine - just in case I hadn't mentioned it...
I had a Merc 300D W123 but we never got the turbocharged ones, and 88bhp isn't enough to move that much car! Gawd knows what the 240 and 200D were like. Mine was an auto and firmly refused to better 27mpg. Many petrols can top that.
But Eighties petrol motors are quite good. My Renault 21 Monaco can do 38mpg on a run, though I admit it lacks enough cylinders to be interesting. Sounds better than a diesel though!
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1986 Citroen 2CV Dolly Other things. Check out my Blog for the latest! www.hubnut.org
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May 16, 2010 17:56:52 GMT
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why derv? I'm after that mythical mega miles per gallon, although I guess you need a light weight 5 or 6 speed manual car with good aerodynamics and all the electronics to make that happen.
I just find myself depressed at the third tank of unleaded at £80+ in as many weeks in the Lexus. LPGing it would be one way forward. Probably the best way forward. That gets me an equivalent to 40 MPG.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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May 16, 2010 17:58:36 GMT
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They're cheaper if you can run it on bio etc. I'm thinking there were a few 70s Peugeot diesels? Like the 504 etc? Definitely the 505 came in a DT form. I would suggest putting a 405GTX D engine into a 203 for ultimate win. No, sorry, ultimate would require rodding the 203 as well... Also the 1.9DT engine from a Renault 19 into a pre-tax R4/R12/R30 etc, but again, go find one... I'm thinking sticking to Ford or Vauxhall is the best route for you, as although the French had the best and most economical early dervs, bodies are scarce. The duratorq into Cortina conversion is one I'm sure I've seen done before, and Isuzu 1.7 into a Ventora would be a similar concept.
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May 16, 2010 18:02:29 GMT
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what box would fit the 1.7 Isuzu? A mate of mine swears by these and runs a Cavalier with one in it. I presume any Carlton or Omega box would do? All of which into a Viva would be a win.
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Last Edit: May 16, 2010 18:02:56 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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