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Jul 17, 2009 16:09:07 GMT
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Hi All,
I'm new here, but a few of you will know me from other boards etc
Hopefully this is the right place to post...
I have a V8 range rover classic 1991 3.9 litre efi. It had shown some reluctance to start before according to the chap , but be a bit patient and it was fine.
I drove it it seemed fine, I bought it and drove it home and the next day it wouldn't start.
I blamed low fuel and filled it up with petrol. No joy
I checked for spark and it was weak so I ordered a new ignition amplifier module
I fitted the module, which necessitated removal of the dizzy and I reset it (several times and had another car (but not v8) knowledgeable person check it. I got a great big fat spark. There are different timing settings from 8 ATDC to 6 BTDC depending on the Dizzy. I tried them all but in spite of the spark (which varied with position obviously) it wouldn't start. we also tried slowly rotating the dizzy as far as we could whilst we were on each setting.
I tried easy start into the air flow meter and that didn't help (but it has to go a long way so I wasn't too surprised)
So here are the problems:
I suspect fuel and thats where I get stuck. there are relays and mysterious things like that. I have checked that the electric fuel pump is spewing fuel out by taking the pipe off the fuel filter. It is. I have checked teh other side of the fuel filter and the fuel system has pressurised and fuel comes out when the pipe is removed.
I don't think its the ECU because it wouldn't spark with a faulty ecu would it?
Any bright ideas would be very well received. I have spent about 10 hours on it now and made no progress. Worse still its in front of the garage where the dolly is and I need to get that ready for amberley pronto!
It has gas fitted (but tank disconnected) but it is switched to petrol.
Its a good truck body wise and I know in the 10 hours I have spent on it (With DaveMk1GTI braving the weather and helping)I could probably have pulled the V8 out and throw a known 200tdi in there, but it would be nice to get it running so I can try it and also so I could sell it on if I decided to give up with the truck and / or the engine.
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Modified Dolomite Sprint
A few other dolomites
Some Land Rovers
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Jul 17, 2009 16:17:42 GMT
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jul 17, 2009 17:32:26 GMT
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Is it trying to start?? What happens when you turn the key etc.. give us some more details and i'll see if anything comes to mind! lol
Assume for starters you have the leads on correct (check and check again! lol) also the dizzy is not on backwards (180degrees out)
What LPG system is it.. definately turned to petrol? (To make sure crank it over and feel the LPG condensor under the bonnet it will be icy if its feeding LPG through to a cold engine)
Could be ECU depends what bit is faulty but if it worked before its unlikely more likely something you have moved/touched, unless it was fried during welding??
Have you checked there is fuel getting to the cylinders (fuel on plugs/pull injectors). Check there is air getting through and that afm isn't blocked. (it might not of liked having cold start sprayed in it so dry it out too)
I have a range rover haynes manual somewhere but think it might be for non efi.. can always look it out if its any help.
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Daily: Spazda Mx5
'A52's Fastest steak eater 2010'
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Jul 17, 2009 18:06:15 GMT
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i have a '91 3.9 with an LPG conversion sitting out on the driveway if you need any pics of where things are plugged in.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jul 17, 2009 19:58:04 GMT
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Ok i had lots of starting faults with my range rover in the 2 years i had it. First off,does it have a lucas cap and rotor arm,if it does'nt. Then get one because non genuine ignition parts don't last long and Rover V8's need good quality ignition parts. You say you have a good spark but does it occur as the engines cranking over or just as you let go of the key? i had this fault on mine and it was a faulty ignition switch,run a cable from your battery direct to the coil and try to start it,if that works then you have a fauty switch which is a common failure point. you have 2 choices replace the switch or do as i did and hide a switch under the dash as the ultimate imobiliser. the other one is a fauty ECU earth on the back of the passenger side cylinder head,its a tight squeeze between the bulkhead,oil leaks from the rocker cover and insulates the earth wires causing a bad/non start. loosen the 10mm nut but don't remove it complely and spray with carb cleaner or brake cleaner to remove the oily deposits and re tighten. Try those if you hav'nt already,and if they don't work google "Range Rover remedies" its an American based web site thats got me out of no end of difficult to fix faults. Hope that helps.
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Jul 17, 2009 20:16:22 GMT
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Ok, thanks for the info so far. some answers which I hope will help....Its not trying to start. its cranking over fast (jump pack plus battery) but not trying to start. the spark is there all the time, not just when the key switches off. the lpg tank is disconnected and the switch in the cab is set to petrol. Dizzy has been checked many many times and been rechecked by someone else as well. Dizzy isn't 180 out as far as I am aware, at 6 btdc its pointing to number 1. I think its fuel I will try and work out how to get the fuel lines off the injectors (I have only really worked with carbs before - in fact I did think about swapping it back)
I think there is air getting through. I removed the air cleaner and the air meter doesn't have a flap or anything in it. I am not sure how that side of things works. (see above). I have the 3.5 haynes manual.
I think its fuel or maybe ecu (from the posts above). Does the ecu control the ignition circuit at all?
I'll check that earth tomorrow. I have to get it moved as its blocking my dolomite sprint in!!
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Modified Dolomite Sprint
A few other dolomites
Some Land Rovers
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Jul 17, 2009 20:24:18 GMT
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Hopefully one of the suggestions will prove fruitful! Cant remeber how easy it is to pop the injectors on these.. but pop them out and check they are spraying. Think by the sounds of it the ecu is possibly the fault but check it all anyway.
I'll also second getting genuine lucas bits, especially if you end up running it on lpg.. they really don't like running on copys.. mine ran like a dog till i splashed for the real thing!
Good luck and let us know how you get on!
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Daily: Spazda Mx5
'A52's Fastest steak eater 2010'
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Jul 17, 2009 21:12:26 GMT
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If its anything like mine, (1993 3.9i) the engine could be just so worn out it won't start. I think mine had ground its camshaft down into a smooth billet. After driving it for about 8000 miles I had to get rid of it as a non runner, and I can usually make ANYTHING start, from cars standing 25 years to old seized tractors etc. But this was just not having any of it. Sorry to be a bit negative.
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Last Edit: Jul 18, 2009 1:57:18 GMT by datman
75 Range Rover 2 door 82 Range Rover 4 door
84 Range Rover 4 door 78 Datsun 120Y 2 door
78 Datsun 620 Pickup 81 Datsun Urvan E23 86 Datsun Vanette van
98 Electric Citroen Berlingo 00 Electric Peugeot Partner 02 Electric Citroen Berlingo
04 Berlingo Multispace petrol 07 Land Rover 130 15 Nissan E-NV200 15 Fiat Ducato
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Jul 17, 2009 21:56:57 GMT
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Yours won't have a flapper injection,yours is whats known as hot wire injection, an electrcal current is passed along a wire in the air stream to the engine,the more the throtle is opened the more air passes over the wire cooling it,the ecu calculates the resisance in the wire and works out how much fuel to add to the air entering the engine,Crude but efective  . Check under the passenger seat to see if the inertia switch has been activated as this may have tripped causing no fuel. Its a black box with a red button on top.Push to reset. Also if you have a spark the Ecu knows and will supply fuel,so no spark=no fuel. But since you said you have a spark that won't be a problem I think. |
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Jul 17, 2009 22:00:23 GMT
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Oh and don't swap back to carbs,its a world of pain and will only Chew fuel more than it will on injection.Trust me,injection is much better.Once you understand how it works,and know the quirks you'll be ok.
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nizzer
Part of things
Posts: 217
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Jul 17, 2009 22:31:12 GMT
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as datman said its a sad possibility that its probably that worn out its not raising enough compression to start. Do a compression test wet and dry and see what you get. To be honest ive never liked RangeRovers in the v8 flavour because most are poorly cared for and the engines arent as resiliant as the bodys are with age! rip it out and fit a 200tdi you will never look back. with a few pump and boost tweaks it will be quicker than the v8 anyway. and say goodbye to running issues and terrible economy!
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How far was the drive home?
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75 Range Rover 2 door 82 Range Rover 4 door
84 Range Rover 4 door 78 Datsun 120Y 2 door
78 Datsun 620 Pickup 81 Datsun Urvan E23 86 Datsun Vanette van
98 Electric Citroen Berlingo 00 Electric Peugeot Partner 02 Electric Citroen Berlingo
04 Berlingo Multispace petrol 07 Land Rover 130 15 Nissan E-NV200 15 Fiat Ducato
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Jul 18, 2009 14:57:31 GMT
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Journey home was about 3 miles, took it for a test drive before which was a few miles, it started fine each of those times. The guy who owned it before used it as his daily.
Checked the fuel bump stop inhibitor thing yesterday and it is fully down.
Compression seemed to be fine (although not formally tested) when we had the plugs out and its difficult to turn with a socket and driver so it does feel like there is compression there.
I'm still thinking fuel so I am going to try and find a way to get to those injectors.
The body is very good, so the 200tdi route is a possible, but it wouldbe nice to try it as it is just for a bit!
Anybody know any experts in teh chichester area in case I get too stuck...?
I think it might be relays, I'll have to work out how to check them.
apart from changing the engine mounts are there any problems with fitting the 200tdi if I go that route? Its in a similar age discovery which is a manual so I'd change engine and box (the rangey is an auto)
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Modified Dolomite Sprint
A few other dolomites
Some Land Rovers
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that link i posted has the fault finding procedure in it for every circuit on a rangey, it'll tell you how to check all the relays as well.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Jul 19, 2009 10:09:04 GMT
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as well as the engine and box from a 200tdi you'll need wiring, clutch stuff (if changing manual to auto) prop, fuel pumps and to really clean your tank out! lol. Its not a overly hard conversion cuz plenty of been done but its not a straight bolt in especially if your going auto to manual.
That said stick with the V8 assuming its not fubar'd.. and I'm dying to see what the cause is so let us know!
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Daily: Spazda Mx5
'A52's Fastest steak eater 2010'
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Jul 19, 2009 12:36:51 GMT
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GOt a spark? Sparking at right time? (connect a timing light ) smell the exhaust pipe after cranking to see if it smells of petrol . This shows injectors working. if not, you could try administering some easy start or carb cleaner to the intake. It should try to start. Might be worth pulling a valve cover off and checking how much valve lift you've got.
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75 Range Rover 2 door 82 Range Rover 4 door
84 Range Rover 4 door 78 Datsun 120Y 2 door
78 Datsun 620 Pickup 81 Datsun Urvan E23 86 Datsun Vanette van
98 Electric Citroen Berlingo 00 Electric Peugeot Partner 02 Electric Citroen Berlingo
04 Berlingo Multispace petrol 07 Land Rover 130 15 Nissan E-NV200 15 Fiat Ducato
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Jul 23, 2009 23:45:45 GMT
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easy start had no effect, checked compression today and its passable i think. Left bank as you look is average 175, right bank is 150. no 1 has fuel, wet spark plug, rest were notably dry.....
any last minute help appreciated, its going 200 tdi in 2 weeks if i can't source a replacement unit or fix this one....
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Modified Dolomite Sprint
A few other dolomites
Some Land Rovers
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If only one had noticeable fuel i'd be looking at the injectors/fuel rail and confirming that they are all getting fuel through.
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Daily: Spazda Mx5
'A52's Fastest steak eater 2010'
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An engine only needsa few things to run:
-Air (see if there's air coming out of teh tailpipe when turning it over)
-Compression (seems fine)
-Spark at the right time (check that the leads are going to the right plugs, otherwise sounds fine)
-Fuel in the right proportions. The wet plug suggests that there is some fuel somewhere.
I don't know whether the hot wire injection system has the additional cold-start injector, but if it does check that it's working.
I also don't know if it uses the thermally-controlled cold idle speed valve, but if so check that it's working and that the hoses aren't blocked. Also check for air leaks everywhere on the induction system on the engine side of the air flow meter. Have you tried booting the throttle while turning it over?
Do the injectors click while you're turning it over? Holding a screwdriver against one and putting your ear to the handle while turning the engine over should allow you to hear the clicking if they are working.
One final thing - the LPG switch is set to petrol. If the switch is broken, or the wiring damaged, the petrol might have been turned off, by the system 'thinking' that it's set to LPG.
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Jul 24, 2009 10:07:28 GMT
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Mine will start on LPG, turns over a bit longer than normal but it will go, i don't think its supposed to but it does so it might be worth giving yours a try, if it does start it'll point to the problem being fuel related.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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. Check under the passenger seat to see if the inertia switch has been activated as this may have tripped causing no fuel. Its a black box with a red button on top.Push to reset. Also if you have a spark the Ecu knows and will supply fuel,so no spark=no fuel. But since you said you have a spark that won't be a problem I think.
