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ACE are the people to look to though as they are consistently tracking and updating available info on current proposals. Sadly still full of panic mongering conjecture though eg : ""It is noted that a number of respondents would like to see extra checks or controls on modifications to vehicles that take place after registration. Various safety concerns were cited, however we received little evidence beyond the anecdotal to back up the views of consultees, as to the actual risk presented and the numbers of vehicles involved. “ ”We will keep the situation under review during the implementation period and maintain contacts with stakeholders to identify any new or emerging evidence. The European Commission also plan to regulate certain items fitted in the aftermarket (such as engine management “chips”) and we will await their proposals.“ ACE: As you can see there are consultations to take place that may prevent the aftermarket tuning of late model and Type Approved vehicles, we will be watching on your behalf." So they have taken one sentence and strung out a whole new future from it. It is total Daily Mail "Whats next!?"-ism ... "They are limiting noisy exhausts!! Whats next Crushing old cars in the street with their drivers inside!??"
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its hardly to the same level though is it?
The statement says that "The European Commission also plan to regulate certain items fitted in the aftermarket (such as engine management “chips”) and we will await their proposals" which I assume is from the "official" blurb, and I don't see how else you can interpret that than there may be proposals forthcoming which will limit or prevent modifications to type approved cars? Which is what the ACE quote says. Which would be paraphrasing rather than scare mongering.
Assuming you mean what I assume you mean by your two sets of quotes.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,538
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Jan 27, 2009 10:00:04 GMT
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I would say that if you read that in their own words "The European Commission also plan to regulate certain items fitted in the aftermarket (such as engine management “chips”)" it is pretty fair to comment "...may prevent the aftermarket tuning of..." as an example of what could quite easily happen as a result.
edit: Akku beat me while I was deliberating!
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Last Edit: Jan 27, 2009 10:01:01 GMT by Seth
Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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Jan 27, 2009 10:03:46 GMT
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Lets review again :
This is from yes another consultation document, where respondents are asked for their opinion on what they favour
"It is noted that a number of respondents would like to see extra checks or controls on modifications to vehicles that take place after registration. Various safety concerns were cited, however we received little evidence beyond the anecdotal to back up the views of consultees, as to the actual risk presented and the numbers of vehicles involved. “ ”We will keep the situation under review during the implementation period and maintain contacts with stakeholders to identify any new or emerging evidence. The European Commission also plan to regulate certain items fitted in the aftermarket (such as engine management “chips”) and we will await their proposals.“
OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING SOMEONE THOUGHT ABOUT DOING SOMETHING!
In other news Carrots may cause cancer. More lost diarys from Princess Di on page 15.....
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Jan 27, 2009 10:12:31 GMT
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I can't help thinking this is all scare mongering and rumour spreading on the part of the DVLA, to keep us all in fear of putting a foot wrong and altering a car so that it will need an SVA. Why you ask? To make their life easier, and to make sure their records are straight so that cars don't get off with being tax free (which they wouldn't be if they were Q plate). It's all about money, and not about road safety.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,926
Club RR Member Number: 174
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SVA Questionsstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Jan 27, 2009 10:22:13 GMT
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Most cars would struggle to pass an SVA test. IIRC you can't limit the test just to the modified parts, so even parts you've left stock may fail.
Some of the stuff you have to do to get rid of "sharp" edges is just laughable. My mate built a Ginetta G20 and he had to stick little rubber covers over all the nuts and bolts on the front suspension, so stop people getting cut if he ran them over. I mean come on, the front of the car was 3" off the floor and about 12" high overall for a start so the chances of going under it are nil unless you're already laying down in the road, plus once you're under there the last thing you're gonna worry about is cutting your clothes up on an exposed bolt head.
Matt
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Jan 27, 2009 10:24:39 GMT
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I can't help thinking this is all scare mongering and rumour spreading on the part of the DVLA, to keep us all in fear of putting a foot wrong and altering a car so that it will need an SVA. Why you ask? To make their life easier, and to make sure their records are straight so that cars don't get off with being tax free (which they wouldn't be if they were Q plate). It's all about money, and not about road safety. you don't understand how government agencies work. Make it more complex means you get more budget and a BIGGAH EMPIRE TO RULE. Its not about money. Theres no money involved. Its about the DVLA meeting some targets on accuracy of the vehicle register.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jan 27, 2009 10:26:56 GMT
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Some of the stuff you have to do to get rid of "sharp" edges is just laughable. My mate built a Ginetta G20 and he had to stick little rubber covers over all the nuts and bolts on the front suspension, so stop people getting cut if he ran them over. I mean come on, the front of the car was 3" off the floor and about 12" high overall for a start so the chances of going under it are nil unless you're already laying down in the road, plus once you're under there the last thing you're gonna worry about is cutting your clothes up on an exposed bolt head. Matt Did he pass the SVA?
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Jan 27, 2009 10:27:30 GMT
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This is from yes another consultation document, where respondents are asked for their opinion on what they favour. OK on the other hand I have a consultation in my family about what we want for sunday dinner. Respondants are asked what they favour. I sit here with my head up my ass saying "its only a consultation, I'll get my roast beef no matter what" then when the only person in my family who bothers to express an opinion says they want vegitarian nut roast... So then I end up looking like a right fool complaining its veggie nut roast for sunday dinner when I wanted roast beef.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jan 27, 2009 10:41:14 GMT
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OK on the other hand I have a consultation in my family about what we want for sunday dinner. Respondants are asked what they favour. I sit here with my head up my ass saying "its only a consultation, I'll get my roast beef no matter what" then when the only person in my family who bothers to express an opinion says they want vegitarian nut roast... So then I end up looking like a right fool complaining its veggie nut roast for sunday dinner when I wanted roast beef. Well if your family had said "we're having vegitarian nut roast" then you've got a point to argue against,.. you know, a fact!... If 6 months before you meal someone had said "I might have something like the pork maybe" you could have worried about it for 6 months and campaigned against it and it not be the ACTUAL FACTS of what would happen. I have absolutely no problem with the following : The DVLA having an uptodate accurate list of who owns what and what condition it is in. Construction and use checks being made to verify a car is safe after modification. I don't even have a problem with someone telling me I can't run stretched tyres or noisy exhausts. I Do have a problem with : Modern production safety standards being retroactively applied to older cars, if that is indeed what is happening. This however has never been clearly stated. It seems to be applied at SVA, but cars are still passing SVA, so it can't be all crumple zones and airbags, the whole hog as it were. Also the whole thing with the points system is interesting, you radically alter the body of your car and you need an SVA, and people get up in arms about the fact that they've been roof chopping cars for years etc. etc. But having seen some of the pickup conversions and the like done over the years, I'm rather glad someone will be checking their handy work.
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Jan 27, 2009 10:45:52 GMT
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There was a great article about it in last month's PPC, direct with the DVLA, IIRC I think there was only one slight grey area but it did answer a lot of questions.
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Last Edit: Jan 27, 2009 10:46:25 GMT by Lewis
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kevfromwales
Posted a lot
the conrod's REALLY out the block now!
Posts: 3,909
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Jan 27, 2009 11:01:14 GMT
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I think that's another part of the problem though - if I geta load of old steel pipe (it might be some old cds, it might be gas pipe) lay it down onthe garage floor, and weld it up with my 130 amp mig, then go and hang my viva front and magnum axle off it, plop a rover in, and sit the body on top - is the sva test going to look at my pigeon poop welding? my comedy 'not on a jig but it looks square' chassis design? (the above ^^ is a car I have seen being put together)
or are they going to be looking at the radius on my front bumper brackets?
they could get around all of this messing by just introducing another stand alone class for 'radically modified vehicles' - ie you start off with your mk2 consul (with logbook) - you cut the floor out, tub it, put a small block in etc etc - the nice chap comes out, has a good look that a) - you have actually based the build on what the logbook is b) - you've done a nice safe job, with the right sort of bits - but tested to the age of the donor, so if you've used a 49 anglia, you could get away with no seatbelts etc, but at YOUR choice then you could keep your tax exempt / non Q plate / original reg no. and pootle off merrily home they could introduce a few limits, so people didn't go taking the mickey - but on the whole it could work? - I think the important one would be allowing you to be re-issued a logbook for a modified car - like if I find an austin ruby in a hedge somewhere, I can 'rod' it, but assuming I have the original chassis no. and a resonable aamount of the car (like the bodyshell minimum) they will agree to it's 'original' status
ow - my head hurts now
- kev
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Almost on the road: b11 sunny breadvan, e36 tds, 325i skidcar,
nearly there: ford f250 tathauler, suzuki alto, u11 bluey
not for a while: ford pop, 32 rails,
not in this lifetime: ruby, '29 hillman
''unfortanatly I'm quite old and scruffy and in need of some loving. my drive shaft needs a new boot....''
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Jan 27, 2009 11:06:42 GMT
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you have to consider the fact that the list of people who are on the default distribution for consultation papers on transport. I saw the list back in 2005 or so and the list ran...
ACPO, Transport 2000, Freinds of The Earth, MADD, SMMT, Retail Motor Trade Federation, RoSPA, SafeSpeed, Commons Select Committee on Transport, Commons Select Committee on Urban Planning, etc.
None of these people have a realistic view of what we are doing. None of these people have an interest in what we are doing.
I'm sure (from speaking to people in govt before) that they genuinely believe they are doing the right thing and protecting the consumer and all that. Convincing them that they are wrong or that there are exceptions or special circumstances is very very hard.
Again, until someone successfully puts a modified car though SVA we don't know whats covered and whats not. Kit cars are tested differently to "amateur built one-off" cars.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jan 27, 2009 11:09:00 GMT
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Again, until someone successfully puts a modified car though SVA we don't know whats covered and whats not. Kit cars are tested differently to "amateur built one-off" cars. Can you volentarily put your car in for SVA?
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Jan 27, 2009 11:16:30 GMT
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Again, until someone successfully puts a modified car though SVA we don't know whats covered and whats not. Kit cars are tested differently to "amateur built one-off" cars. Can you volentarily put your car in for SVA? AFAIK, yes - You basically book the test, pay your fee (£150/£200 IIRC) and take it down to the station where the car will be tested and the result handed to you on a form. I read a lot about it a few years ago when I planned to build a 7 type kit car. The tests aren't daunting on a kit car, because as you build the car you will choose components that will pass, but taking an older production car through one would make my go like a rabbits nose. Lighting regs (I think everything has to be E marked for a start) Steering column, interior and exterior radiuses (The back edge of chrome bumpers can sometimes cause problems) There are a lot of hoops to jump through especially where radiuses and sharp edges are concerned, but at least these items are easily fixed by slitting some fuel hose and cobbling it on.
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Jan 27, 2009 11:22:41 GMT
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Everyone assumes that the full range of kit car regs are applicable to a modified car. I am not sure that this is the case. As I said, I read through the SVA testers manual and a whole lot of it is not applicable for "amateur built one-off" cars but I do not know what the definition of that is. I'd have thought it could apply to a V8 Morris Minor, or then again maybe not.
Interestingly there are a bunch of extra exemptions for LHD cars and commercial vehicles.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,926
Club RR Member Number: 174
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SVA Questionsstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Jan 27, 2009 11:37:48 GMT
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Yes it did pass, though the car was designed to pass. The SVA does is not a safety check though. At no point did they check any of the suspension or chassis to make sure it was designed and built for the job. As has been said many times before, I could buy a stock 1935 Hillman Minx and sit a blown Hemi in the front. It wouldn't need an SVA, even though it would be the most dangerous thing on the road. Meanwhile I build a full tube frame, fit good suspension and brakes all round, plonk the Hillman body on top and fit the blown hemi in. It would be a perfectly safe car, but would need to be SVA'd to be legal for the road. Matt
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Jan 27, 2009 11:42:14 GMT
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Everyone assumes that the full range of kit car regs are applicable to a modified car. I am not sure that this is the case. As I said, I read through the SVA testers manual and a whole lot of it is not applicable for "amateur built one-off" cars but I do not know what the definition of that is. I'd have thought it could apply to a V8 Morris Minor, or then again maybe not. Interestingly there are a bunch of extra exemptions for LHD cars and commercial vehicles. I'll have another read of the PPC article on it. It would be interesting to know if I put my 1979 Sunny with silly tyres and chopped springs in if it would pass. Then when it has coil overs + less silly tyres + engine if it passes. Then a new engine etc. etc. Sadly 3 tests = £450!
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Jan 27, 2009 11:43:30 GMT
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you have to consider the fact that the list of people who are on the default distribution for consultation papers on transport. I saw the list back in 2005 or so and the list ran... ACPO, Transport 2000, Freinds of The Earth, MADD, SMMT, Retail Motor Trade Federation, RoSPA, SafeSpeed, Commons Select Committee on Transport, Commons Select Committee on Urban Planning, etc. None of these people have a realistic view of what we are doing. None of these people have an interest in what we are doing. I'm sure (from speaking to people in govt before) that they genuinely believe they are doing the right thing and protecting the consumer and all that. Convincing them that they are wrong or that there are exceptions or special circumstances is very very hard. Again, until someone successfully puts a modified car though SVA we don't know whats covered and whats not. Kit cars are tested differently to "amateur built one-off" cars. Agreed, however several of those groups shouldn't be anywhere near the consultation list for things like SVA.... BTW, my understanding of ACE is that they are a potential group for being on such a consultation list. Also their reporting of EU commission proposals is very important, as if we are unaware of the opinions being expressed by others in the consultation, then how on earth is the car enthusiasts' view point going to be protected? As a hobby, we need to know when it is and when it isn't necessary to shout out. Bear in mind also that the FBHVC couldn't care less about modified vehicles, so clearly aren't going to represent the retro / modified car enthusiast on this or any related issues. Fair enough to criticise ACE if they were reporting them as 'this is going to happen' but if they are just reporting what proposals are being discussed, what's the problem? For them not to do so would be irresponsible to those they intend to represent. If someone choses to misread the reported proposals & opinions from the other lobby groups, as being definite intended legislation, then that is their own fault. Of course ACE need to get publicity - what lobby group doesn't, especially when starting out, but I see nothing on their site that suggests that they are overly scaremongering or being 'Daily Mail'.
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Jan 27, 2009 11:49:45 GMT
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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