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SVA QuestionsDeleted
@Deleted
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Jan 26, 2009 13:55:52 GMT
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OK, After summut that was said on another forum, from a chap who claims to be a vehicle inspector. It's got me wondering if my car is legit... here's what he's put... "the SVA does not just apply to imported cars. it applies to kit cars, vehicles built up from more than one source of parts, radically altered vehicles, and in some cases, stolen/recovered vehicles where the identity cannot be proven by other means. Yours falls into two categories here. Radically altered AND built up from more than one source of parts. Bodywork not included in the latter. The bodyshell is the vehicle, but in order to be the same vehicle it left the factory as, it must keep the original TYPE of....engine, transmission, suspension, steering, and brakes. NOT the original parts notice, but the original type. (I think this applies to the fact you have used salvaged parts from other vehicles rather than new/reconditioned parts with receipts to prove their newness.) You have thankfully uprated the braking system. You have modified the suspension. (Which I believe to be new) The engine and gearbox are different to the originals. You are left with the steering and bodyshell, which make up the original vehicle. It's a close thing. Does it have a PAS conversion? If so, it may be required to have the SVA (Or the updated version IVA) before it can be legally used on the public highway. Whether or not you can get it MOT'd is neither here nor there I'm afraid, you will be committing no offence getting it tested, nor will the testing station, but it may need a more thorough inspection to be legal! That's the way the UK is going (and it's no bad thing) If it turns out to need one, you may lose the identity of the original vehicle, and be issued with a Vin code starting SABTVRO instead of the original Ford one. This MAY mean a Q plate.............." SO basicly he's saying my Fiesta should have been SVA'd? Anyone able to clear that up? Thanks
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Jan 26, 2009 14:06:37 GMT
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Its a points based system, and you need to retain enough points to not need an SVA, you lose points for everything changed on the vehicle, its madness to be honest as if you just drop a huge great V8 into your fiesta it will retain enough points to not need testing, but if you change the brakes and suspension as well to cope with the extra power and build a safe car it will need the test. I beleive altering the shells main structure in anyway also requires you to get the car tested.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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SVA QuestionsDeleted
@Deleted
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Jan 26, 2009 14:09:27 GMT
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Crazy rules, Soooooooo with the number of origional parts countable on one hand. I'm guessing i should get it checked out :S
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Jan 26, 2009 14:41:58 GMT
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Interesting his point about power steering, given the number of companies offering power steering conversions for older cars...
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1986 Citroen 2CV Dolly Other things. Check out my Blog for the latest! www.hubnut.org
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SVA QuestionsDeleted
@Deleted
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Jan 26, 2009 18:33:21 GMT
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OK he's shed a bit more light on it for me, Still worrying tho!.....
"It doesn't matter if the parts are new or used, it matters that they are to the original type or a supercession. These cars you speak of have been completed before now. The tide of change is coming. As the Boy Scouts say.........Be Prepared!
As you can see, I'm no stranger to conversions and modifications, but rules were a lot more relaxed back then. I have seen things tighten up recently, and with the new IVA coming in, they stand to get stricter still. Just be aware that as you declare your mods to the insurance, they might be obliged to inform DVLA............Not saying they will, but might!
Just as I am obliged to report certain faults on vehicles to relevant authorities, it used to be optional, now it's recommended, how soon before it's compulsory?"
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,614
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Jan 26, 2009 18:44:53 GMT
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SVA QuestionsBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Jan 26, 2009 18:48:53 GMT
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The whole SVA (or IVA as it will become later this year) thing is a little worrying - we've had it relatively good in the UK for a long time. I've done a bit of light Googling on the subject and it looks like the IVA is just a tweaked SVA in order to bring it in line with EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval. Thinking positively, it looks like hearsay and chinese whispers have whipped up a storm in a teacup. Not much will change and the cars which needed an SVA will instead need an IVA. Whether there will be further enforcement used to sniff out cars that aren't SVA'd but need to be, such as MOT testers being required to report things, further VOSA checkpoints on roads and at car shows.... I don't know. There was a flurry of speculation at least a year back, and the NSRA got involved. Can't remember the outcome but I seem to recall SVA testers asking why there was a glut of virtually stock motors being put through the test... Your man seems to be quite over-zealous about it all really... I can't see the IVA as being some kind of revolution like he seems to be hinting at. As for how your car is affected, maybe linking to your build thread or giving a brief rundown of what's been done might give people a better chance of giving their opinion.
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Jan 26, 2009 18:57:44 GMT
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Surely with all the concerns and worries that this subject raises an open forum like this one is NOT the place to declare all your modifications because you never know whos reading! ;D ;D
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If I had two brains I,d still be a halfwit 1969 Morris Minor Traveller
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SVA QuestionsBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Jan 26, 2009 18:59:14 GMT
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the present SVA system has barely been enforced - the new IVA will be enforced much more stringently. I think that's the part which we need to be concerned about really. I mean, are we going to have VOSA snooping around car shows? More stop-checks being set up? VOSA trawling internet forums? Part of me thinks that if a car needs an IVA then it should have one, and apart from the cost and inconvenience, if the car is properly modified then it's a good thing. The Q-plate will be a bit of a down side but I reckon if many more modified cars are given a Q, then it will lose its stigma and perhaps even become a badge of honour as it will mark out a car that's been so hotted up and modified that it needed one... I'm trying to think positive here! ;D I'm a little sceptical that a VOSA inspector would be able to pick up all but the obvious modifications. I mean, unless he's some kind of oracle on every car ever produced he's not going to know whether discs or drums were fitted as standard on an NSU Ro80, or if a Toyota CROWN ever came with an LSD for instance... so I don't know how that will be implemented. Also, the IVA is a one-time test. I don't know how they could control what happens after the certificate is issued...
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SVA QuestionsDeleted
@Deleted
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Jan 26, 2009 19:42:49 GMT
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Surely with all the concerns and worries that this subject raises an open forum like this one is NOT the place to declare all your modifications because you never know whos reading! ;D ;D I don't mind, My insurance company know everything down to the dustcaps. I don't have a build thread for it yet but basicly 1988 Mk2 Fiesta with mk1 xr2 engine (some snazy internals) and matching cooling system, Exhaust, Battery etc etc Re-build toughened 1100 4 speed 'box XR2 brakes G-max suspension kit Interior stripped replaced with basic door cars and RST Recaro seats and harnesses. Strut braces, Some nice alloys (13 inch) and steelies for winter months (xr2) Various simple and reversable mods, Clear indicators up front, Ghia bumpers, momo steering wheel, odd stickers, badges etc Lots of new pannels But the way this other chap was talking he was making out i'd virtually got a whole new car and needed a SVA!
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SVA QuestionsBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Jan 26, 2009 20:00:10 GMT
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I think that guy was talking boo-locks to be honest.
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SVA Questionsmaskedavenger
@GUEST
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Jan 26, 2009 20:49:42 GMT
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i think you get less of a punishment smoking canabis or burglary ,than modifying your car ,or 35 in a 30 this country is nuts...makes you feel like youve done somthing wrong by enjoying your hobby once we were an empire run by an emperor then we were a kingdom run by a king now we are a country run by a c###
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SVA QuestionsDeleted
@Deleted
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Jan 26, 2009 20:55:51 GMT
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once we were an empire run by an emperor then we were a kingdom run by a king now we are a country run by a c### pmsl love it! Have to remember that!
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Jan 26, 2009 21:15:54 GMT
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OK he's shed a bit more light on it for me, Still worrying tho!..... "It doesn't matter if the parts are new or used, it matters that they are to the original type or a supercession. These cars you speak of have been completed before now. The tide of change is coming. As the Boy Scouts say.........Be Prepared! As you can see, I'm no stranger to conversions and modifications, but rules were a lot more relaxed back then. I have seen things tighten up recently, and with the new IVA coming in, they stand to get stricter still. Just be aware that as you declare your mods to the insurance, they might be obliged to inform DVLA............Not saying they will, but might! Just as I am obliged to report certain faults on vehicles to relevant authorities, it used to be optional, now it's recommended, how soon before it's compulsory?" 'origional type or a supercession' Does that mean oem or oem uprated? I.E. xr2 engine in a fiesta would count as supercession and therefore equal to origional type and therefore your car would be fine?? Rebuilt stock gearbox, surely that counts in the above. Aftermarket suspension may not count but seems like your car is perectly fine. don't know alot about it though.
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Jan 26, 2009 21:30:26 GMT
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VOSA have already turned up at car related events. They blitzed a meeting of the Landrover owner's club a while backlooking for late model Landies on early logbooks.
I know of a few cars which have fallen fowl of this already. This includes at least one which has ended up broken up because it couldn't meet SVA and another which last I heard was a track only car because it couldn't SVA. One was a hot rod and one was a yankee muscle car the guy did a hefty prostreet job on before trying to register it.
A chap local to me took a Ford Zodiac to his local garage for an MOT. Said Zodiac had a V8 and a Mustang back axle, some other upgrades like disc brakes. The tester dobbed him in to VOSA because he said it should be on a Q plate and not tax exempt. VOSA agreed, the car was prohibited from the road. Unfortunately I lost contact with the guy so don't know how the story ended.
Some guy with a roof chopped car had got a tug from VOSA for "radically altered body" and was fighting with the NSRA's assistance.
Sure, theres been over-zealous "what if" scenarios but a small number of people have so far fallen foul of SVA with modified cars.
Technically if it doesn't have enough "points" it needs a VIC and that seems to mean SVA as well.
This is more of a problem if you need to register a car from scratch or if its a real modified thing like a rod where you will get an obvious tug from the boys in blue driving a 1932 Ford roadster which the DVLA computer says is a 1978 Cortina...
But "technically" it applies to modified Fiesta or anything else we have on this site.
Anecdotally people seem to incur the wrath of the DVLA if they do stuff like do a cherished registration transfer because then they go over both donor and recipient car with a fine toothed comb. Sometimes. I know some people just get a cursery look and some get the full 9 yards.
Its a matter of luck really.
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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The question is how will SVA affect retro car modifications. The hot rod guys fall foul of some of the light and safety rules... but if I've dropped a Vr6 in a Mk1 Polo and it needs an SVA, will it be that harsh? OR will it be checking that I'm not a danger to myself and others with my shoddily built car. Will it also mean when I sell my car on that people that buy it will know that it isn't a death trap...
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None of this is about road safety.
This is all about the DVLA wanting to maintain an accurate register of vehicles. In the opinion of the DVLA if you take a 1982 Polo and fit a 1994 Engine, box and brakes you no longer have a 1982 Polo and they want to reregister it as a "vehicle of unspecified age".
Unfortunately as of 1997 the law changed and any car requiring reregistration also requires an SVA test (shortly to become an IVA).
SVA is nothing to do with road safety either. SVA is all to do with ensuring all cars getting registered conform to type approval specifications.
If the DVLA, VOSA, ABI, ACPO or whoever wanted a basic safety inspection on modified cars I would have no objection to that.
What we have is a lot of confusion with a lot of myth and misinformation. This is because the DVLA and VOSA don't give consistant enforcement. People are not being regularly stopped or done under these regs, despite them having been in force for over a decade. What we have is the vast majority of modified cars out there driving about with no problems but a handful of people who have been put through the mill.
There are two polarised views. One view is that there is nothing to worry about, nothing will come of this, its too hard to enforce. This is incorrect as the law already stands and some people have been done.
The second view is that we all have to panic because DVLA and VOSA are breeding ninja cyborgs in secret labs with X-men powers to sniff out modified cars just waiting to burst forth from the sewers and slaughter us all.
This is somewhat of an over reaction.
I know a few MOT testers both IRL and online and a couple of them say that someone at VOSA has mentioned that they will be expected to notify DVLA of all cars which seem to be on incorrect registrations (radically modified cars, cut&shut, later cars on tax execmpt log books) but most have heard nothing of this when asked. So is that some testers getting an early warning or someone at VOSA talking up something thats not really happening?
If the doom prophets are right and the DVLA wants a mega crack down then all they have to do is read the readers rides thread here, on NSRA, on Retrocarclub etc or pick up a copy of Practical Classics, Retro Cars, Custom Car, etc. They'll find so many infringements there they'll keep themselves busy for months without any use of a computer tracking system, snithcing MOT testers or cyborg mutant ninja attack forces.
Which makes me thnk the DVLA probably think its more hassle than its worth. But is that "More hassle than its worth for now" or "for ever"?
The real issue is that very few people have tried to SVA a modified car (as oposed to a kit car or rod built from the gorund up). I know of a guy who put a stock VW Beetle through SVA and it failed on a list of things as long as your arm but there are a series of "get outs" for "home built" cars which would not apply to a stock Beetle but might apply to a Scooby powered custom Beetle for example. Who has tried it? What was the result? There is nobody coming forward. Who knows?
The problem is the magazines are being a bit stupid IMO. They are pubicizing breaches of the regulations in features and the general public reading that will assume its legit to do it and the DVLA reading those mags (which they do, along with the forums) will assume its common practice....
In a recent classic magazine I read a main feature car where the owner had the car, decided it was too rotten to restore so bought another less rusty one and transferred the running gear and ID over from his old car to the new one. This is called ringing and is illegal even if you own both cars legitimately. Ive seen several articles in the mags where this has been done.
In a recent Custom Car feature a guy building a T-style Pop based rod didn't have a V5 for it so bought a Ford 100E off eBay and used that as an ID donor. Again a flagrant breach of the law.
I can understand why both examples above were done. I might even be tempted to do things like that myself. But I sure as hell wouldn't be going telling the world in a national magazine.
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Last Edit: Jan 27, 2009 8:47:59 GMT by akku
1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Thats fine with me,... to be honest,...
How does it affect us? Will our retro cars pass an SVA easily? That is the question. I got the recent PPC to read about it, and it still didn't tell me as much as I wanted to know... nearly all online sources are screaming around panicing without any facts (as ever).
Even this thread doesn't contain any real information.
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The real information is that so far nobody is owning up to having been down this route!
I not read the full SVA manual but I have read the SVA inspectors crib notes, these mention all manner of "unless the vehicle is an amateur built one-off in which case don't test this".
But what does amateur built one-off mean? Does an Anglia 105E with a cossie running gear count as an amateur built one-off? Or does it mean where the amateur has built the whole thing, box frame chassis and folded metal body?
Anyone on here an SVA tester? LOL
I know when I asked VOSA directly about making a car into a twin engine one (I wanted to clear up this "twin engine cars are illegal" story once and for all) they said that a twin engine car was road legal no problem but would need an SVA test as obviously the chassis would be modified to accept the second engine. Thats a paraphrase of their actual words.
This whole thing is most unsatisfactory.
NSRA advice is that anyone building a "radical" car should make sure that they build it to SVA standards whether they expect to have to SVA it or not.
Or else build your car with enough "points" retained that it is not going to need a VIC or SVA/IVA
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1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,538
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I was under the impression, and I hope someone can put me right, that the problem with the SVA/replacement schemes for modified old cars is that if you loose the number of points required to retain the registration then you would be required to go through a test that is based around modern requirements eg collapsable steering etc. That's where AKs Beetle example comes in. HW, the big problem seems to be that neither DVLA or VOSA know what theiy're doing at the moment so it is impossible to even take their current statements (or for example the PPC article) as fact. ACE are the people to look to though as they are consistently tracking and updating available info on current proposals.
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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