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IMO, its up to the driver to ensure themselves the car is safe. legally speaking it is too. So if you get stopped while driving someone elses illegal car (eg bald tyres) its you who get the points and fine not the owner. your 30-40 MPH test is one thing, but the court would argue what happens if you have to stop from 60, 70 or faster? What happens if you have to stop with a greater load in the car or different weather conditions.... An engineer's report that your wheel/tyre combo was safe would be about the only thing I can see being admissible
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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The only way for anything to be solved in this is to have an individual engineers report for every wheel and tyre combination! isn't this pretty much what german TUV requires?
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Like all 'Law' its all open to conjector.
The police have to fight just as hard to give you a penalty as you do to avoid one. Trouble with cars is they have been given freedom to hand out minor penaltys willy nilly. If it had to go to court they wouldnt bother.
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it would probably not be considered a productive use of court time to take it to CROWN court, but I can see this sort of thing going to magistrates (hell, if they'll take you there for dropping litter or putting your junk mail in a council street bin you can't rule anything out) especially if they are "throwing the book at you" about something, like you were at a cruise, or were bolshy to the officer who stopped you.
Q: how many coppers will spot most "averagely" stretched tyres anyway?
its like if I owned a 1980s Cadillac it would be illegal for me to drive round with the US spec red indicators. If I did that in a city like Nottingham, you'd think that the cops would notice and ticket me eventually?
They probably have better things to do than that. But then they did get all arzii over my black plates on the Cortina and that was well not a good use of resource.
But if I were in an accident and the other guy says "I couldn't see him signal because they were red not orange" I might stand some chance of catching some flak there.
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Last Edit: Nov 5, 2008 11:42:00 GMT by akku
1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Well, I always thought that stretch was fine, but wheel protrusion is not.
I read that and see I have 30mm to go at, so my rim sticking 15mm outside the car is fine, but the 195/45/15s on 8.5 inch rims are not.
FYI, they seated without any fuss/explosives/cheater gun and they have passed several handbrake tests that I performed for my own peace of mind. I'm 100% happy that they are safe or I wouldn't be driving on them, and I'm confident that my technical opinion is more valid than that of the majority of police officers. I'm and engineer, they are police officers - we are each skilled in our own ways.
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Last Edit: Nov 5, 2008 11:58:06 GMT by cobblers
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they have passed several handbrake tests that I performed for my own peace of mind. Dunno why but this made me LOL. "honestly officer, I was just checking that the tyres were safely seated in the rim" almost as good as "its got a really stiff clutch and my knee gave in"
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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they have passed several handbrake tests that I performed for my own peace of mind. Dunno why but this made me LOL. "honestly officer, I was just checking that the tyres were safely seated in the rim" almost as good as "its got a really stiff clutch and my knee gave in" I laughed as I typed it too! "Yes, I was driving recklessly on this empty carpark for the safety of the CHILDREN!"
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street
Posted a lot
6.2 ft/lbs of talk
Posts: 4,662
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Interesting indeed. I often think to myself- The idea of stretched tyres came from the drifting scene..... Surely one of the most tyre-punishing motorsports out there! If a stretched tyre can stay on while some japanese lunatic hangs the arÂŁe out on his AE86 at 80mph on a sweeping left-hander, then it should be safe enough for me to negotiate even the tightest of mini roundabouts on any given housing estate Of course theres the decrease in traction etc etc. But you just have to drive within the limits of your set-up. I.e I wouldn't enter a corner at 80mph in a Micra with 145/80's on it and expect to come out the other end facing the right way. Changing your cars limitations is fine as long as you adhere to them IMO. Usually the people who harp on about lack of traction with a modded car on stretched tyres are the same people who suggest to someone building some sort of mental 200bhp sleeper to "keep teh standard steels on it 4 teh full sleeper efect or it int a proper sleeper m8". Just my musings, don't take me too seriously
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Last Edit: Nov 5, 2008 12:27:36 GMT by street
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I think the "fear" is that people expect that stretched tyres will "come off" and cause the car to have a sudden loss of control, rather than that the general handling is not so good.
What caused the tyres to come off that Celica at RR07?
How much stretch is too much?
Lad on another forum had 10x15s with 195s on them and one apparently came off the rim on a roundabout in "normal" driving.
etc.
I dunno what the definition of "SAFE" is anyway, but you can drive around on 20 year old 145s on 4x12 rims and nobody questions it...
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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The link to the yoko website is not bad
It basically says that a 195/45/15 can go on a rim up to 7.5 inches. That is the approved max size. An extra half an inch is curse word all, and could be considered inside the safty margins!
I will be running 195/50/15s on my 8j wellers. I have printed that off and will keep it in the glove box. Not that my tyres are really strectched at all, but i can pull that out and show a copper if I am ever asked!
Lewis
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id like to make a comment, if i may. i don't think you can compare stretched tyres on a raod car on public roads to stretched tyres on a drift car on a track. the track is glass smooth compared to the road. surely the way the tyre acts on the track differs hugely to the way it behaves when its getting abuse from the rough, bumpy broken surface of the tarmac?
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So... which tyre/wheel combinations offer the maximum stretch whilst remaining within the tyre maker's recommendations? Do any tyre manufacturers allow more than others? I can never get my head around the sizes and things, but is it possible to run it "legally"?
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Last Edit: Nov 5, 2008 13:53:29 GMT by DarrenW
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So... which tyre/wheel combinations offer the maximum stretch whilst remaining within the tyre maker's recommendations? Do any tyre manufacturers allow more than others? I can never get my head around the sizes and things, but is it possible to run it "legally"? This is the question that needs answering,.. then we can at least have a list of definite legal UK stretch in the wiki somewhere.
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Dave, I think it's a question that will linger, with all curbside discretion going to the coppers. Until, unless, the car community succeeds in getting some black & white rulemaking done by regulation. This is where a political action arm of the car community could serve the motoring public..... ....as I've advocated previously...
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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Dave, I think it's a question that will linger, with all curbside discretion going to the coppers. Until, unless, the car community succeeds in getting some black & white rulemaking done by regulation. This is where a political action arm of the car community could serve the motoring public..... ....as I've advocated previously... Hmm, I think the chances of getting anyone (police/Vosa/tyre manufacturer/vehicle manufacturer) to sign their name on a document outlining 'legal safe limits for stretching tyres' is about as likely as me knocking 5 seconds off Usain Bolt's 100m time while wearing a 'Wizard of Oz tin man' outfit.
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1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 Mazda 929 Coupé 1986 Mazda 929 Wagon 1979 Mazda 929 Hardtop 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 1989 Subaru 1800 Wagon 1982 Hyundai Pony 1200TL 2-dr 1985 Hyundai Pony 1200 GL 1986 Maserati 425 Biturbo 1992 Rover 214 SEi 5-dr 2000 Rover 45 V6 Club 1994 Peugeot 205 'Junior' Diesel 1988 Volvo 760 Turbodiesel Saloon 1992 Talbot Express Autosleeper Rambler 2003 Renault Laguna SPEARS OR REAPERS
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Yes that is the ultimate answer... engineers report for a range of tyre sizes on a range of wheels... Or for a tyre manufacturer to specifically make tyres for stretching Really it would be good to find a tyre industry representative to help find a more long term conclusion.
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Dave, I think it's a question that will linger, with all curbside discretion going to the coppers. Until, unless, the car community succeeds in getting some black & white rulemaking done by regulation. This is where a political action arm of the car community could serve the motoring public..... ....as I've advocated previously... Hmm, I think the chances of getting anyone (police/Vosa/tyre manufacturer/vehicle manufacturer) to sign their name on a document outlining 'legal safe limits for stretching tyres' is about as likely as me knocking 5 seconds off Usain Bolt's 100m time while wearing a 'Wizard of Oz tin man' outfit. No, because it wouldn't be that type of document. It would be a tire-to-rim legal limit fitment regulation. Then no doubt at curbside. It would address max and min rim width for each tire size, and take away "discretion" by the copper in middle of the night with a longhair driving a ratrod thru town on the way home from Dubfest or RR09.
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Team Blitz Ford Capri parts worldwide: Restoration, Road, or Race. Used, Repro, and NOS, ranging from scabby to perfect. Itching your Capri jones since 1979! Buy, sell, trade. www.teamblitz.com blitz@teamblitz.com
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I think MrB is reffering to the likelyhood of there being a political lobby group type organisation which tackled these kind of issues on the behalf of "our kind of motorist".
Which I tend to agree. There are groups such as the NSRA, ACE, FBHVC, AA, the kit car people whatever they call thier group, etc. but all have their own agenda and none of us seem to manage to play nicely with the other children.
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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So... which tyre/wheel combinations offer the maximum stretch whilst remaining within the tyre maker's recommendations? Do any tyre manufacturers allow more than others? I can never get my head around the sizes and things, but is it possible to run it "legally"? This is the question that needs answering,.. then we can at least have a list of definite legal UK stretch in the wiki somewhere. Ive just been through Yokohama, toyo, Michelin, Pirelli, and Bridgestone's guides and the answer is as follows: The BIGGEST allowment I can find for stretch is no more than 1/2 AN INCH OVER the section width of the tyre - basically NO stretch. Every single other 'allowment' only allows for equal or less than the section width, ie: 215 tyre can only go on 8" or less (usually down 25-22% of the section width, absolute average is 23.89%) I did some long multiplication and percentage sums to assertain averages but the outcome is, as far as tyre manufacturers guildlines go: (when [width of rim] = ≥ 76.11% of [width of tyre] but not exceeding 100%) = LEGAL but only if the reduction is no greater than -1.75" There was some correlation between profiles affecting the variables but i couldnt work it out exactly, but as the profile reduces, so does the % of reduction allowed (NB: this is only based on my calculations and I am no mathemetition and I only spent 35-40 mins on it, but the maths is correct enough for the rough-guide formula above to be right)
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Your car is not 'epic', this thread is not 'epic'....the OCEAN is epic, the UNIVERSE is epic.... please stop misusing this word!! It would appear Hotrods are the new VWs - aint fashion funny! '69 BUICK LESABRE 350
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