GJM
Posted a lot
Alloy engines; like communism- great in theory.
Posts: 1,393
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Jun 20, 2006 21:31:16 GMT
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Hear hear
Been thinking much the same thorughts over the past 48 hours, great to hear somebody actualy saying it.
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Last Edit: Jun 20, 2006 21:33:26 GMT by GJM
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Remarks like those made by "Badger Bill" are water off a ducks back to folks like me - that's exactly the sort of attitude we have from many people, and a prime example of why most people involved in banger racing don't give a monkeys how people who will never contribute to our sport view us. The "problem" of us being viewed as scum is not a problem at all to us, as this is exaclty how we are treated by many car enthusiasts, regardless of stolen cars being raced or not. I will happily "explain" banger racing until I'm blue in the face but I refuse to justify doing something I enjoy doing perfectly legally without harming anybody else.
Just for a moment "Badger Bill" consider this - I DO NOT have to make excuses for what I do to you, nor do you have to like it. This probably explains why you are angry and rude, whilst I (and other banger racing people contributing here) am calm and reasoned. I can do what makes me happy whilst you cannot stop me doing it - which clearly makes you very unhappy. Ho hum!
Now, some information about bangers to help people understand the sport a bit better:
Some banger tracks are part of an association called the Oval Racing Council and are affiliated with one another - many do not join this and are completely independent. Taking the south of England as an example - Wimbledon, Eastbourne, Arena Essex, Bovingdon, Ringwood and Dover are all "ORC" tracks run by various different promoters. Generally, any driver banned from one track will be banned from all of them. The ORC is a national organisation that runs most of the major championships, but certainly does not account for all of the major meetings, or more than about 60% of the cars that get raced every year. In the same area, Standlake, Layhams Farm, Smallfield, Horndean, Worthing, Fleet, and Braintree are all independent tracks that run bangers individually to their own rules.
Any initiative introduced to check validity of competing cars in bangers would only be worthwhile if it covered all the tracks. In order for this to happen it would HAVE to be ENFORCED by the law or it would not be universally adopted. If the ORC set up such a system (which I believe to be unworkable anyway), then any dishonest person would just race suspect cars at one of the independent tracks instead and render the system pointless.
If a sport is run at a grass roots level such as banger racing it cannot self-regulate a complex issue like vehicle checking when car construction rules have still not been standardised after 40 years of racing.
OBVIOUSLY, if there was a legally enforced system, it would HAVE to be followed - until then very little can or will be done. This is simple straight forward fact. Banger people are not being deliberately obstructive by saying things would not work, we just understand our sport and understand how fractured and disorganised it is on a national level.
If it is still possible to scrap a car without the V5 or the VIN, what genuine prospect is there that this sort of check can be done at banger tracks?
Now on to the cars. Many of the old cars we race do not actually exist according to the DVLA because they are built up from parts. The last car I raced was a Austin A50 that I assume was registered as scrapped some time in the dim and distant past. I started with a bare shell obtained for free with no VIN and no V5. This was a basically as rotten as a pear with no chassis left between the bulkhead and the axle - I doubt it had seen the road since the 1980's. After 11 hours welding and fabrication there was a floor in there - after this, the "car" was prepared for racing using a combination of Triumph 2500, Austin A60, LDV Sherpa and Ford Granada parts. How on earth would you check the validity of that?
If anybody can take these points into consideration and propose a workable solution then I'm all ears.
I echo Reg126's sentiments about the loss of the Datsun.
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Last Edit: Jun 21, 2006 0:36:03 GMT by wilko
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ERRR is it me or was this thread started for people to post info on the possible where abouts of the pc granada. Come on peeps, we have been chucking insults at each other for like a week now. Lets get back to matter in hand, finding the car?
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ERRR is it me or was this thread started for people to post info on the possible where abouts of the pc granada. Come on peeps, we have been chucking insults at each other for like a week now. Lets get back to matter in hand, finding the car? :)Without a doubt the best post on this thread by far TCS...top guy IMHO
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Wilko, my feelings towards your pass-time are not really the point. What is the point is that no-one from the 'banger-boys' who have posted on here seem outraged by these thefts and in one case the subsequent destruction, and are more intent in proving themselves innocent, rather than proving this other chap, or any other underclass in your group, guilty.
I would imagine that most of the cars are only good for scrapping and I applaud you spending time on tinkering, I do it myself but for different ends. And I am not accusing you of being a thieving scumbag, nor any of the other legit drivers, come to that. What I am accusing the banger community of is utter apathy to a situation that is wholly within your control and refusal to cast out criminals who perpetrate their misdemeanours to enhance their standing within the group at the cost of individuals who chose to look after "easy to steal" "modern classics" of low monetary value and consequently little interest to the police.
I've everything crossed that the Granada turns up safe, to see it saved for posterity and be used as it should be.
BB
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Yesterday at 7:54, pogweasel wrote:
Nothing wrong with creature comforts. If I want masochism, I'll just go and slam my knackers in the fridge door for a bit.
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Would any of the contributors to this thread object if I were to use their posted messages or part there of to assist me with a dissertation that I am preparing for college? To be able to use material I need to obtain 'informed consent' so I therefore need to explain what i am preparing. The hypothesis is that as traditional groups previous scapegoated by society are no longer availiable predudice has became much more abstract. I have previously worked with some guys that race banger cars on a seperate issue on violence transferrance when this issue came to my attention. All quotes if abridged, will be kept in context, however I invisage using the thread as a whole. I have spoken to the ethics guys at campus and their view is that as contributors are posting under what is effectively an alias, all I need to do is offer the opportunity to withdraw permission, if you wish to, please do so by responding to this post, clearly stating which post you do not want used or simply put 'all'. If you wish to know more before deciding I will fully answer any questions. It is my intent that this permission also applies to posts that appear after this post. Thanks and kind regards Casey
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,886
Club RR Member Number: 71
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Jun 21, 2006 10:30:32 GMT
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I think you should start a separate thread with permisions rather than clog this one totally!
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Jun 21, 2006 11:31:41 GMT
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In response to badger bill your accusations and attacks are still aimed at the banger community as a whole. Please bear in mind that the various laws that exist in the uk apply to all and that over the years much thought has gone into making laws and how to enforce them. Such laws are there as much to protect the innocent as to convict the guilty. Bill you talk of "OUTRAGE"....well to be frank a calm approach always works better and gives time for people to carefully consider things over and think them through. I can assure anyone caring to read this that all the people I know are most unhappy to hear that any stolen car has been raced. As theft accusations are very serious matters they need to be treated very seriously. Hearsay and rumours may or may not have truth in them and it is not wise to act on such. Also bearing in mind possible court cases then any premature actions or statements may impede justice. No doubt badger you have made your mind up in kangaroo court fashion .Do you really expect the banger community (or any other for that matter) to also act in a similar kangaroo court fashion? That is not a case of closing ranks or trying to protect the guilty but merely trying not to prejudice any court case that may arise.
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Jun 21, 2006 20:50:17 GMT
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surely its not that difficult to tell the difference between a welded up wreck and a rust free straight Datsun/Granada etc shell? Quite right - but how do you make the rules? If you try and check cars that are "rust free and straight" because it is impossible to check old wrecks cobbled together out of 5 different vehicles - who actually defines "rust free and straight" and decides which cars are worth checking? How are they checked? Who will have responsibility and pay for the expense? Bottom line - unless they change the laws, IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. If being born with enough common sense to understand what is within the realms of the possible and what is not makes me somehow "apathetic" or "complicit" in the eyes of some of you, then so be it. However, I do feel GENUINELY sorry for anybody who has had a car stolen. My first car when I was 17 was an old 1985 Mk2 Fiesta diesel owned by my family since it was nearly new. By the time I got it handed on to me years later for the princely sum of 700 quid, it had crusty panels was generally a bit crappy. I got the help of a mate's uncle to weld in new wheel arches and repair the front valance, I trawled the scrappies for some straight doors and then we resprayed the car. I then found and fitted XR2 brakes / suspension / wheels and generally learned how to be a DIY mechanic on that car. I passed my driving test in it and drove it over 50,000 miles in 3 years including all over Europe - then it got stolen and burned out, so contrary to what some of you may think, I do understand what it means to people to have a car they loved and worked hard on pinched by a thieving ****
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Last Edit: Jun 21, 2006 20:51:25 GMT by wilko
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i understand that the police checked the mentioned datsun after it had left that venue,
so why didn't the police enter the arena and ask for assistance from the event organisers and drivers, because if they had, someone there would have helped.
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Jun 22, 2006 16:04:34 GMT
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It's not great news about the Granny although in the long-term its theft may end up doing some good. We'll see...
We've had lots of tip offs from inside and outside the banger-racing community. Thanks for those. All the tip-offs point to the same people and, yes, they are banger racers. You can read the full story of what's happened in the August issue of Practical Classics (on sale July 5th).
The bottom line is that most banger racers and decent, honest people but there is a small but very active criminal element within the sport. Until they are weeded out and banned, banger racing will always be in disrepute.
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Jun 22, 2006 16:08:13 GMT
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Bring back public stonings!!! Fuggin sickening.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Jun 22, 2006 18:02:59 GMT
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I`m getting a little sick of your remarks about the Banger racing community, give it a rest and get a life.
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GJM
Posted a lot
Alloy engines; like communism- great in theory.
Posts: 1,393
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Jun 22, 2006 18:07:28 GMT
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Ohhhhhhh the irony ;D
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I`m getting a little sick of your remarks about the Banger racing community, give it a rest and get a life. Fester, i think you'll find that the remarks that people are making are not about ' the Banger racing community'. They are about the thieves within the community. We all feel the same about people that steal a car for any reason. What i do find a bit upsetting is that if we all put as much time into reseraching the theft of the car as we do into finding things to have a go at each other about, then we would of probably found it by now. don't mean to be an old woman.
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Point taken, there is a bad element within the sport in most areas, some areas more than others by the looks of it from the locations from where the classic cars have been lifted from. The sheer stupidity of the people who half inched the Granny beats me if they are from the banger world as is being posted on this forum. Obviously a car which stands out that much is going to attract some publicity if you pinch it so if you got half a brain why do it in the first place. Hope the the car is found intact and the thieves are punished accordingly.
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Jun 23, 2006 11:26:54 GMT
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All the tip-offs point to the same people and, yes, they are banger racers. Effinell. The bottom line is that most banger racers and decent, honest people but there is a small but very active criminal element within the sport. Until they are weeded out and banned, banger racing will always be in disrepute. Hear hear.
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Jun 23, 2006 11:37:16 GMT
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Wilko, that's an interesting post of yours back on the last page. Thankyou, I for one never realised just how fragmented the sport is. However, maybe the time is right for there to be some kind of overall governing of tracks and events, I appreciate that this is logistically difficult and am aware of the implications, but if you're all sick of being tarred with the same "traveller criminal car thief" brush, how else are you going to resolve it? These independant tracks with no affiliation anywhere to any kind of governing body, why can't they be persuaded to, or some kind of incentive set up to make "legit" racers take their custom elsewhere (ie to "legit" tracks). You're basically saying that you (as a community) are not prepared to do anything until it becomes law... Why not? Any initiative introduced to check validity of competing cars in bangers would only be worthwhile if it covered all the tracks. In order for this to happen it would HAVE to be ENFORCED by the law or it would not be universally adopted. If the ORC set up such a system (which I believe to be unworkable anyway), then any dishonest person would just race suspect cars at one of the independent tracks instead and render the system pointless. It wouldn't render it "pointless" at all! It would further ensure that legit cars are raced at legit circuits, freeing up resources for monitoring the other events and circuits. If a sport is run at a grass roots level such as banger racing it cannot self-regulate a complex issue like vehicle checking when car construction rules have still not been standardised after 40 years of racing. I really find this comment difficult to understand - how easy is it to check a VIN plate? OK the example cited later of a shell with different engine/chassis etc is trickier but you've got to start somewhere, right? The Datsun, for one, was a complete car and would've been caught! OBVIOUSLY, if there was a legally enforced system, it would HAVE to be followed - until then very little can or will be done. This is simple straight forward fact. Banger people are not being deliberately obstructive by saying things would not work, we just understand our sport and understand how fractured and disorganised it is on a national level. No, what you're saying is that "ooh it's all a bit difficult and we can't be bothered". Sure, the sport may be fractured and disorganised at a national level right now. SO START PUTTING STEPS IN PLACE TO CHANGE IT! Strikes me that it's fairly obvious that that is what needs to be done. And that it won't be easy. But if you want to change the image and perception, and want the sport to continue to thrive and grow and evolve, it's what needs to be done. IMO, like. None of that is meant in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER as a personal attack, insult, criticism or anything. I'm genuinely trying to be as constructive as I can, and I am aware of how little I know and how naiieve my opinion may appear
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Jun 23, 2006 17:36:34 GMT
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At the end of the day the only people who can do anything about the situation is not the drivers but the governing body the Oval Racing council ( O.R.C.) a nationally organised committee governing several formulas, at the end of the day what they say goes, they don`t govern all promotions but the main ones are under their control and if you get the ban at one place you can`t race anywhere where an O.R.C. licence is reqd.
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