Here's an idea - wire in the fuel pump to a switch on the dash that only turns on once the ignition is on. That way the ECU doesn't have a say in it at all. Competition cars have this as standard.
I kinow you've looked into swirl pots before but maybe look at it again, and twin pumps, controlled by the switch on the dash. Then fit an autolec master switch that turns everything off in case of emergency.
Push button start along with the fuel pump switches and ignition key all mounted on a single piece of brushed ally in the centre of the dash FTW
I'd also look into twin throttle cable setup too as the pedal looks like it might be a bit heavy with all that linkage, putting strain on the one cable. If one breaks then you're stuffed for the day until it's fixed.
I realise this would cause issues with ignition advance/retard but surely a man of your talents should be able to frig something together using Royale dizzy, a couple of toilet roll tubes and a pair of Val's old knickers!
And lose the knock sensor control and ign maps that have been well fettled over time - not keen to be honest
Chopping off the original dizzy head and welding on an early Monza one with advance and retard weights was considered as much of a backwards move as putting carbs on a car which has fuel injection as std
Nah I'll work it out - bit more head scratching and studying "tube maps" required
Ah well, t'was but a thought shower.
Brain storms aren't allowed now don'tchya know.
TBH, I didn't really expect you'd take it seriously!
If I have to explain, you won't understand. Maximum signature image height = 80 pixels
Well in the rush to get the car finished to go to Le Mans for the classic as well a trip to the ACE plus ELV and RR stickers as well as preparation for RR08 I've kinda neglected this thread so a quick update with where I am to date (some stuff snaffled from other relevant posts......
Take 1 Opel monza GSE
This one ;D
with a 3.0 24V Senator Engine
Remove all the fuel injection and manifolds - why? - because I wanted to
Add
Dellorto 40 Carbs x 3 £250 Custom manifold £200 Linkage Kit £88 Misc Machining work £55 Longer throttle cable £20 Bell Mouths x6 £75 Fuel Pressure regulators £80 Filters x 6 £101 Gaskets x 6 £60 Fuel hose £10 Parts for carbs £40
Add a book on carb tuning £20
total £999 :eek:
Fit it all
Fire it up (Just a snippet)
Priceless ;D
So carbs fitted and car running - Have a narrowband Lamba sensor and an in car digital display (readout)
So I mentioned to my mate Geoff that I needed to balance them and he said I think I've got a couple of balancing tools - I'll dig em out
He was a mechanic when he was in his teens and they weren't new then He's the wrong side of 60 now ;D
Old school tools - Cool - hope they work
So with the carbs balanced up
Problems
Coming of tickover and onto the throttle is a bit fluffy - get round it by blipping the throttle to supply some juice and then gently appling throttle and easing up the clutch to pull away - I think it's lean in the progression stage from tickover to main jet.
Slightly too lean on cruise (not 100% sure if it's too lean or acceptable)
Good results
Seems to be fine with 36mm chokes in 40's - std check of backing of the throttle to see if it pulls better (meaning chokes are too big) resulted in no difference
I think it goes as well as it did with the injection set up despite ignition set up being in "safe mode" 7 fault codes present in the ECU so it's having 10 deg of ignition advance wiped of the timing
It also has finally gone back to being a proper Monza - the crackle and bangs from the exhaust as you lift off and decelerate is like a shot gun going off on a regular basis - Yeee haaaa ;D this was my favorite bit on the Monza when it was a 12V and I was miffed that the 24V engine conversion lost that.
And that's how I ran it to le Mans
It averaged 21.5 mpg on the journey to Le Mans and back but as previously covered the Motronic ignition system didn't like the missing components being missing and adopted a "safe" but very shakey ign timing set up as well as the issue with the rev limiter being a fueling cut off - no injectors = no limiter so I needed to be carefull when pushing the car rev wise
Followed closely by a trip to the Ace
So bottom line was it runs but hardly at it's best
I tried a "modified" ign map with 12 deg extra advance but the car pinked like crazy below 2000 rpm so bottom line is I gave up and started looking at programable Ign systems
Then I saw an advert in Retro car Magazine for H&H ign solutions - they offered a stand alone ign system using electronic ignition and mechanical advance (bob weights and springs) with an amplifier and a coil
So I spoke to a chap called Lee who confirmed they could do it and by my deadline date - week before RR08 & the ABS club rolling road shootout - and for a very reasonable price - approx half what it would cost me for a programmable ign system (that would require me to climb a very steep learning curve in a short space of time) this was great news so I paid up and waited for it's arrival - H&H already had a distributor from a 24V engine that they would modify and send.
In the weeks before RR08 & ABS Rolling road shootout (Held at TCS Performance) I concentrated on getting the carb installation better port matching the inlet manifold and replacing the hand cut gaskets with proper machine cut ones, I changed the cams for some re-profiled ones I've had waiting for years - it all ran smoothly after the change - one thing at a time is my normal rule but now I was changing two or more things in a short period of time!!
On the Monday before RR08 I got a message from Lee - the distributor they had in stock and planed to modify was scrap - could I send my one to them - he promised he could still meet the deadline - so I made my car not drivable and sent my distributor by UPS next day delivery.....
Wed I was informed it was being despatched and I had Friday booked as a holiday so provided I could get it all together and running I'd be fine
Friday I fitted it all and to cut a long story short I had a bit of a mare!!! I just couldn't get the car to fire up no spark - I tried to call H&H but it was past 5pm when I did so left a message trying to explain what the problem was (no spark) so like all of us when we can't get our head round stuff I called in an experts - - a couple of ABS members - Michael (long standing friend and MOT tester plus all round electrical/mechnical wizard) and also Adrian who is brilliant with wiring I had two experts.
We eventually found the problem and fixed it - Distributor wiring had a break in it on the hall sensor (pick up unit for the sparks) so I ripped apart a distributor on a car I am working on for a friend to provide the "donor parts" and fix that but our "testing process" created another - we fried either the the bosch amplifier unit or the coil!!! At 1130 pm on Friday night I called it a night - I was a bit miffed. Mrs BC was even more miffed because we we supposed to go to a wedding reception that evening and she was all dressed up and ready to go and had patiently waited and supplied tea in the early stages of the evening with promises of "we are nearly sorted - another 30 mins"
Sat Morning I got up early and camped outside my local helpfull motor factors "Thetford Autoparts" (was preferable to the frosty atmosphere in the house TBH) when they opened up Richard who runs the place gave me the only two amplifier units he had were intermotor and I went home to try them - one worked one didn't but that was good enough for me - car runs
At this point I got a call from Lee of H&H Ignition solutions (I'd left him a voicemail regarding my problems and he was calling me back to see if I'd fixed it) I explained what we had found and how we'd fixed it but that I was using a different amplifier unit. In what I would call proper customer service he agreed to go into work look up the part number of the amplifier I was going to use and check it would be OK. He called me back an hour later and said it would run but for how long he couldn't say - he's prefer I sourced a replacement that was the same as he supplied and he gave me all the part numbers accross the various makes, intermotor bosch lucas etc
As luck would have it a few phone calls and I found one - and Michael went of to purchase it. While Michael was away I busied myself tidying up the wiring and proper installation of the coil.
on his return it was fitted we timed up the engine roughly and wooo hoooo I had a running car - for 1 min till it died
Ahhh lack of fuel pump - quickly solved by a switched live feed to the fuel pump relay and we were back in business
So by this time it was 2pm and I rolled over to Stansted for the Rolling road shoot out with Michael following in his car (also booked into the session) The original plan was to go onto to Gydon from the Rolling road but that needed me to load up the car and I hadn't time for that
We had a little discusion (OK quite a long one) with a police officer who was following us in an unmarked car on the way there after a small indescretion - this resulted in some points being applied to Michaels licence for breaking the magic number on a dual carriageway and me being given a bollocking (he understood why I did what I did and accepted it was the safest thing to do but solid white lines aren't for crossing........ Apparently!!
At the rolling road shootout I got what I really wanted a proper fueling profile v bhp and torque.....
Carbs have lost me quite a few bhp and a not insubstantial amount of torque but looking at the fueling profile and bearing in mind I went for a very conservative ingition setting I wasn't surprised - it's massively rich at tickover and in the mid range and leans off too much at high rpms
Video
I drove home packed the car - fueled it up again (err 146 miles and down to a quarter of a tank again!!) and set of for Gaydon at 730pm
Getting to RR08 was a huge result
Getting home again after via Leicester to collect a set of wheels from "funkula" was a bigger result especially as I did 320 miles on a tank (65L) although I was on fumes!!!
So where now........
Car is booked in with a semi retired carb specialist in Cambridge for the 1st September - I priced up jets and emulsifier tubes and I reckon even if I guessed right I'm going to end up spending a £100 on parts so I'd rather spend a couple of quid more and get it set up by someone who is supposed to know what they are doing!!! Might even be able to optimise the ignition timing too
Last Edit: Aug 24, 2008 12:40:03 GMT by bstardchild
Glad to see i´m not the only one in the sheet with the misses when i overdo it.....try red roses mate, works for me every time!
Glad you made it to RR08 BC, was nice meeting you.
Quick question for you and i´m not taking the p***, with all the effort and money you´ve invested in the conversion i´d have expected some sort of power or mpg increase.
Will this happen when it´s set up properly, does it sound better or what was your motivation behind all this work?
BC - didn't realise the cr*p you'd gone through to arrive and dole out the stickers pal - an even bigger thanks from me! I'd have to admit doing all that work is worth the sound just from the 'blip' video! Glad it's all coming together. Looks fantastic too
P'haps we should get the 'other halves' a forum set-up and they can 'vent' ;D
Quick question for you and i´m not taking the p***, with all the effort and money you´ve invested in the conversion i´d have expected some sort of power or mpg increase.
Will this happen when it´s set up properly, does it sound better or what was your motivation behind all this work?
Well I didn't expect a bhp increase they reckon max is 80bhp per carb so 240 max which is what I had once
I did it because I always wanted to do it and it seemed like a good time to do it as I had virtually no plans for the Monza left!!
mpg never was good but it isn't hugely worse ;D
It sounds fantastic so if a session with someone who know what they are doing with carbs on a dyno improves bhp and torque a bit I'll be much happier - if I can get it up to 220 bhp that would be perfect
I know i've probably said this before, but i've forgotten what you said back to me on the day!
What difference would having 45's instead of 40's make to your car? Whenevery i read about carbs being fitted to smaller cars, say a 2.0 pinto for example, they nearly always seem to have 45's on. Now a 2.0 car is 2/3 of a 3.0 one, so wouldn't having 45's be a better option? I know i'm probably talking curse word, i really don't understand carbs enough to know what's going on but i'm just curious as to what difference the different carbs would make!
yeah 45s would see a reasonable gain I reckons, people make nigh on 200 with them on XEs with cams and such, so you'd be easily up for some more go. Isnt there some shortage of 45s though? Because I sold a pair Id bought brand new for £350 for £700 on ebay! best investment I ever made!
And as for getting it set up by an experienced rolling road / carb place........ WELL worth it. Accompanied my friend with his 2.1 pinto Mk1 Escort (with twin 48s!) and the difference in drive was immense. Better idle / midrange / top end / everything basically.
I love you car though man. Its giving me dirty thoughts with mine and some bike carbs.
Jeez dude! And I thought you were the cool calculating type!
I'm gobsmacked by the work you've done on your mill. The set up looks astounding, well done!!!
Have been having carb' thoughts myself recently. May need to speak with you although I may have to be prepred to have my head fried judging by the knowledge you've accumulated in such a short space of time.
Keeping an eager eye on the thread.
Keep up the good work!!
If I have to explain, you won't understand. Maximum signature image height = 80 pixels
yeah 45s would see a reasonable gain I reckons, people make nigh on 200 with them on XEs with cams and such, so you'd be easily up for some more go. Isnt there some shortage of 45s though? Because I sold a pair Id bought brand new for £350 for £700 on ebay! best investment I ever made!
XE you can get vernier pulleys to optimise the cam timing
C30SE - no chance
45's would be better but I was offered 40's Upgrade to 45's maybe another time ;D
And as for getting it set up by an experienced rolling road / carb place........ WELL worth it. Accompanied my friend with his 2.1 pinto Mk1 Escort (with twin 48s!) and the difference in drive was immense. Better idle / midrange / top end / everything basically.
I'm hoping for both power improvement and some drivability gains but we shall see
It sounds fantastic so if a session with someone who know what they are doing with carbs on a dyno improves bhp and torque a bit I'll be much happier - if I can get it up to 220 bhp that would be perfect
So I found someone - Peter Baldwin - Cambridgshire - proper old school chap (semi retired works just a couple of days a week and a very nice fellow) if it has carbs on it he'll look at it........
So today he did - Colon Elk you are soooo right nothing major changed - a few jets and settings but sheeesh what a difference
Went in just a smidge under 200 bhp (I'd already played with the ign timing to try and get rid of some pinking at low rpm I noticed after the rolling road when it produced just 187 bhp)
Went out 240 bhp - with a smidge more avaliable
3 hrs work by someone who knows what they were doing optimising the ignition timing and jetting
Operator comments - fix your throttle linkages so it opens fully (oops) and you might have another 4-6bhp for nowt but a few mins spanner time
I was fully prepared for carbs to never drive as well as injection - everyone has told me this - well thats just blown that myth!!!!! It's a hoot now and I can't find an area of the rev range or throttle combination where it doesn't just pull like a train!!!
1500 to 2500 rpm fluffiness gone
Mixture pretty much bang on all the way across the rev range - just a smidge rich at high rpm (safety reasons)
from 1200 rpm in 5th to 7000 rpm in one seamless progression - I've done 150 miles since they were set up and loved every min/mile
Last Edit: Sept 1, 2008 20:23:32 GMT by bstardchild
Had a similar thing on my silly-tuned a-series Minor about 15 years ago. Took it to a old chap recommended near Winchester who had a full rolling road setup in his garden shed. Went in with a fluffy 90hp and nothing below 3500rpm, came out with 124bhp (atrw) and even less below 3500rpm. Utterly hooligan engine. Full race cam on a road car is such fun when you are 18 years old! Probably annoy the hell out of me now though...
Really rather looking forward to going for a play in your Monza tomorrow...
Last Edit: Sept 2, 2008 6:50:58 GMT by UtterPiffle
There is nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes
