Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 12, 2022 22:58:56 GMT
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The 335d never came with a manual which is probably why you can't find one. The gearbox itself can take the torque, but they melt the dual mass flywheels so no good for an OEM. There are two different sorts of the GS6-53dz, the small-bellhousing E46 variant (also in some X5s I think), and the big-bellhousing variant which I think came in E60s. Not sure what the E90s got. They both bolt up to the same pattern, but the big bellhousing one is deeper and fits a bigger dual mass. You can get solid flywheels from TTV for the small bellhousing (that's the one I have). Haven't seen one for the big-bellhousing. Although I suppose you might be going for a custom flywheel, or something with the Windsor flywheel. GS6-53dz HGD is the code for the big-bellhousing variant. I've got 2.88 gears in the back of my XJ40 with a GS6-53dz with the 5:1 first gear and 255/45 17s. First is definitely usable but it does run out quickly. Enough to leap out of a junction with, but you do find yourself scrabbling for second a bit quickly to actually make some progress. That is with a 5000rpm redline though, so with a few more revs it should be fine. For me, second needs just slightly too much clutch drag to get moving to make it a convincing first gear, but I am trying to get a 1700kg Jag rolling rather than an 1100kg Scimitar. It's also behind a turbodiesel which don't actually make all that much torque off boost, so a big displacement petrol might start easier (provided you don't have a lumpy cam or a paddle clutch). Cruising rpm at 70mph is 2200rpm-ish which is fine for the M57. Treating it as a dogleg 5-speed with an optional towing crawler-gear would probably be a bit of a nicer way to drive it, providing it'll pull away in second fine. What sort of cruising rpm are Windsors happy at? If it's 2700-3000rpm or so, depending on your tyre size, then a 3.54 would still take you to 150mph-ish and help you start in 2nd easily. Although cruising at 2200 might help with the fuel bills  The boxes I have found at reasonable prices are from e60. I wasn’t that bothered about bellhousing depth as I was planning on using the windsor flywheel and clutch with a pressure plate to match the bmw spline and then just space the release bearing to make it work. Providing the Windsor ring gear fits in the hole that is. But the boxes are cheap enough for me to take a punt in that respect. I’m trying to work it around a 245/45r16 tyre, and the numbers would work with a 3.05 or 2.88 diff I reckon. |
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Nov 12, 2022 23:51:04 GMT
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Looks good to me. I think the BMW pressure plate is 240mm, and I seem to remember reading 288mm for the flywheel diameter but don't quote me on that. Plugged the numbers in my little gear ratio spreadsheet and they seem pretty reasonable with a 3.05 or 2.88:  My Jag's a bit longer geared on account of having bigger rear wheels, but your options still looks pretty sensible. |
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Nov 13, 2022 13:54:51 GMT
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the gs6-37dz will handle a NA 300+bhp v8 just fine. I'm going to go over 300bhp and 650nm in the near future on it and there should be no problem. In Sweden they're used extensive up to about 800nm.
Ratios on the dz(diesel) boxes are less ideal in first and second gear. They're made to get a heavy car off the line. A bz version (from a petrol version) is nicer but also rare in a strong version.
My Giulia is 1070 kg with a 2,56 diff and 195-55-16 tyres. I usually drive off in second gear, works perfect for me.
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Nov 13, 2022 14:21:03 GMT
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my e39 is 2k revs at 80 and that's bliss on the motorway, admittedly the sound deadening is really good. So with possibly double the torque at those revs from the windsor then the highest gears possible would be great. Most big engined light cars become 2 gear cars due to the torque anyway.
Although 16" tyres seem to be expensive compared to 17"s if the wheels are perfect then it's worth it
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Last Edit: Nov 13, 2022 14:24:29 GMT by legend
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 13, 2022 19:01:31 GMT
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Looks good to me. I think the BMW pressure plate is 240mm, and I seem to remember reading 288mm for the flywheel diameter but don't quote me on that. Plugged the numbers in my little gear ratio spreadsheet and they seem pretty reasonable with a 3.05 or 2.88: My Jag's a bit longer geared on account of having bigger rear wheels, but your options still looks pretty sensible. Those calcs look pretty good don’t they. 3.05 would be a trackable ratio with 2.88 making it a decent motorway cruiser, depending on which what I go with the car. eBay parts listings do seem to agree it’s a 240mm clutch. I’ve just measured the flywheel I have, the friction plate alone is 280mm with the flywheel around 350mm 😂 |
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Last Edit: Nov 13, 2022 19:02:15 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 13, 2022 19:17:35 GMT
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the gs6-37dz will handle a NA 300+bhp v8 just fine. I'm going to go over 300bhp and 650nm in the near future on it and there should be no problem. In Sweden they're used extensive up to about 800nm. Ratios on the dz(diesel) boxes are less ideal in first and second gear. They're made to get a heavy car off the line. A bz version (from a petrol version) is nicer but also rare in a strong version. My Giulia is 1070 kg with a 2,56 diff and 195-55-16 tyres. I usually drive off in second gear, works perfect for me. Realistically I’m not going to go for the 37 when the 53 can be had for the same or even less money. The diesel ratios are really not that bad if you’ve got a tall diff as biturbos calcs show. There’s actually been an interesting development where ive found the cheapest source for the gs6-53dz is the 1 series 123d. What is significant is the starter motor location. On the 330d it’s up at the top about 30 degrees round, which on a v8 is going to be straight into one bank, so not usable. The 123d has the starter almost at the bottom, about 20degs up. I think they moved it to allow room for the second turbo. This puts it maybe into the tin sump a bit, but that’s a bit I can chop about to make it fit. What I’m thinking is I can potentially machine down the Windsor flywheel to accept the bmw ring gear liberated from its flywheel, and use the bmw clutch package and starter so it utilises off the shelf parts. I’ve no idea if that will work until I have the parts in hand, but it has the potential to. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 13, 2022 19:24:09 GMT
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my e39 is 2k revs at 80 and that's bliss on the motorway, admittedly the sound deadening is really good. So with possibly double the torque at those revs from the windsor then the highest gears possible would be great. Most big engined light cars become 2 gear cars due to the torque anyway. Although 16" tyres seem to be expensive compared to 17"s if the wheels are perfect then it's worth it Pretty much all American v8s were never overdriven either. The bmw box having the two overdrive gears is a luxury. Yeah 16” tyres aren’t quite as cheap, but they are more period. The wheels I’m looking at are pretty much period correct. The 245/45r16 I'm basing calcs around are an OE Porsche size so aren’t that pricey. |
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Nov 13, 2022 19:28:37 GMT
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Over here in the Netherlands the 53dz boxes are way harder to find cheap. Most cars that would have them are automatics.
For the ringgear you could also only get the flexplate from an automatic bmw. Might be easier.
The Bmw uses a dualmass flywheel with a non-sprung plate. The flywheel has a 9mm tall ridge on which the pressure plate mounts. Not too hard to replicate. I intend to do the same for another project. There is use an automatic flexplate and make an insert for it that copies the bmw flywheel so i can use the standard bmw clutch.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 13, 2022 19:46:53 GMT
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Over here in the Netherlands the 53dz boxes are way harder to find cheap. Most cars that would have them are automatics. For the ringgear you could also only get the flexplate from an automatic bmw. Might be easier. The Bmw uses a dualmass flywheel with a non-sprung plate. The flywheel has a 9mm tall ridge on which the pressure plate mounts. Not too hard to replicate. I intend to do the same for another project. There is use an automatic flexplate and make an insert for it that copies the bmw flywheel so i can use the standard bmw clutch. I’ve just bought a 1 series 123d box for £100 delivered. It’s got the clutch fork, realise bearing and rear mounts on it but I do need to pick up a slave cyl and shifter (to chop up) that will add £50. At that money it’s worth a punt to see if I can make it work. E46 330d ones are about 5- 600 which is far too much like proper money for me. Yeah using a flexplate instead is a possibility. I’ve been looking at the clutch options and a new kit is only about £80. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 13, 2022 20:04:20 GMT
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I’m basically looking at this gearbox conversion as half a dozen separate jobs.
1. Mount box to engine concentrically.
In other words make the adapter plate and bolt it up. This then allows me to position the engine and box in the car.
2. Starter motor and ring gear. I’m quite taken with the idea of using the bolt-on bmw starter so that means the job is to attach the bmw ring gear to the Windsor flywheel. Sump may need modification but The oil pump mounts at the front of the block off the dizzy jackshaft so won’t get in the way.
3. Clutch. At least the friction plate will need to be the bmw one to match the spline, by the time I’ve got that it probably makes sense to use the bmw pressure plate too.
4. Clutch hydraulics. Should be pretty easy as both car and box are already hydro. release bearing will Proably need spacing to make up for the loss of the dual mass.
5. Tail shaft mount. That’s the easy bit really.
6. Prop. I will need to make an adapter from the 3 bolt rubber donut job to a conventional bolt-on UJ with a slip joint (the original box had a slip yoke) but I’ve done that before.
Overall it’s a complicated, overfacing job, but split into bits it gets a lot easier.
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Nov 13, 2022 20:30:45 GMT
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6. Prop. I will need to make an adapter from the 3 bolt rubber donut job to a conventional bolt-on UJ with a slip joint (the original box had a slip yoke) but I’ve done that before. When we put the Omega V6 and gearbox in Ian's MGB, I machined an adapter to attach a traditional bolt on UJ. On ordering the prop, they suggested using a UJ with a bigger than normal flange that could be drilled for the 3 bolt mounting. Which is a much better solution. |
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 13, 2022 21:38:13 GMT
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6. Prop. I will need to make an adapter from the 3 bolt rubber donut job to a conventional bolt-on UJ with a slip joint (the original box had a slip yoke) but I’ve done that before. When we put the Omega V6 and gearbox in Ian's MGB, I machined an adapter to attach a traditional bolt on UJ. On ordering the prop, they suggested using a UJ with a bigger than normal flange that could be drilled for the 3 bolt mounting. Which is a much better solution. It is. I’ve never encountered one though, it would be good to know where they can be sourced. |
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When we put the Omega V6 and gearbox in Ian's MGB, I machined an adapter to attach a traditional bolt on UJ. On ordering the prop, they suggested using a UJ with a bigger than normal flange that could be drilled for the 3 bolt mounting. Which is a much better solution. It is. I’ve never encountered one though, it would be good to know where they can be sourced. Nor had I, and we should have asked before spending £20 and an hour on the lathe. The propshaft builder had them in stock. Industrial machinery uses all sorts of bit that aren't 'normal' to cars. The resulting prop was longer than an overdrive MGB one.... |
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Nov 14, 2022 10:03:10 GMT
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I quite like the idea of using an auto BMW ring gear for the starter and then machining a sort of button flywheel type thing for your clutch out of the Windsor flywheel (mainly for the bolt pattern). Provided the auto starter is the same of course...
Even if you do machine the Windsor flywheel to accept the ring gear it'd be better to start with a flex plate. They're cheaper than the dual masses (although you might be able to pick up a dead one for cheap, would have sent you mine if it wasn't scrapped already!), and the ring gear might be attached traditionally whereas I think they might be integral on the dual masses (although not sure really).
Oh, also, if you're buying a BMW clutch for it then most of them come with unsprung pressure plates as they're matched with a dual mass. When people put solid flywheels on they use the E60 530d clutch as that one's got a sprung centre. LuK part number 624 3371 00.
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Last Edit: Nov 14, 2022 10:44:47 GMT by biturbo228
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 17, 2022 10:14:20 GMT
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I quite like the idea of using an auto BMW ring gear for the starter and then machining a sort of button flywheel type thing for your clutch out of the Windsor flywheel (mainly for the bolt pattern). Provided the auto starter is the same of course... Even if you do machine the Windsor flywheel to accept the ring gear it'd be better to start with a flex plate. They're cheaper than the dual masses (although you might be able to pick up a dead one for cheap, would have sent you mine if it wasn't scrapped already!), and the ring gear might be attached traditionally whereas I think they might be integral on the dual masses (although not sure really). Oh, also, if you're buying a BMW clutch for it then most of them come with unsprung pressure plates as they're matched with a dual mass. When people put solid flywheels on they use the E60 530d clutch as that one's got a sprung centre. LuK part number 624 3371 00. More good info, thanks. I’m gunna have to start writing all this down! Yes I’ve done similar in the past with a sbc conversion and use a flexplate for that, as I already had one. Still waiting for the box to turn up before I plan any further, it was supposed to be here yesterday but didn’t turn up. |
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Last Edit: Nov 17, 2022 10:28:26 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 17, 2022 10:27:37 GMT
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But, what did turn up was an absolutely ridiculous set of wheels. They’re the wrong pcd and WIDE. They were listed as 16x7/16x9, but when you’ve been doing this as long as I have you can tell rim widths by how certain size tyres fit. The front tyres are 205/55r16, and with how square they sit there’s no way the rim is a 7”. The rears are 245/45 and are on the verge of being stretched, again making me think that those wheels weren’t 9s either (245mm = roughly 9.5”) I was a little apprehensive as when people mismeasure wheels they usually add an inch not loose one, but The more I thought about it the more confident I was in my estimation of sizes. So a lowball offer was thrown out, and the guy accepted and delivered them from two hours away rather than post them as part of the price. 30 seconds of tape measure work confirmed my suspicions, they’re 8s and 10s 😁 Now, 10 jays is a imperial sh1tload of girth for a car of this period. I’d done some basic maths to estimate offsets but it’s always fraught with danger when you’re relying on other peoples measurements. So all there was for it was remove a wheels and bang the studs through (two where rather loose anyway) so the wheel can sit to the hub face.  Oooh, I think this might just work…  Just need to redrill all the things so they actually bolt up… |
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Nov 17, 2022 11:07:26 GMT
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That isn't sufficient wheel photo to satisfy our interests / perversions.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Nov 17, 2022 11:25:50 GMT
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That isn't sufficient wheel photo to satisfy our interests / perversions. And that is exactly why I posted it 😂 |
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Nov 17, 2022 11:40:21 GMT
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10j fits the back of my tvr perfectly , yuo'll be fine   |
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ToolsnTrack
Posted a lot
Homebrew Raconteur
Posts: 4,117
Club RR Member Number: 134
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Nov 17, 2022 14:45:33 GMT
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You absolute balltease!
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