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Sept 12, 2022 7:26:18 GMT
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Hello all. I'm absolutely tearing my hair out with the issues that this car is giving me lately. It's a 1998 4.0 XJ8.
I'll give a full list of what has happened and I'm hoping someone has some input about the likely issue.
The car drove fine when I bought it last winter but shortly afterwards developed an annoying habit of trying to stall everytime I came to a stop. Sometimes it catches itself and lurches forward but has been known to completely stall. When running, it was changing gears fine, but stopping was a problem. I had the gearbox fluid topped up because I read online that slightly low level could cause issues with the torque converter locking up, but to no avail. Note, it behave fine when either first driven or after a long drive. Problems would start after it had been driven for about 5 minutes and persist until it was hot.
So, I took the car to an electrician who said the problem code he had was to do with a fault with the sports button. Before replacing the sport button entirely I decided to remove it and clean it with some contact cleaner, but when I replaced it not only did the problem persist, I lost both my sport and cruise buttons. Neither light up and neither work. I assume I interfered with something but cannot see what!
Over the last few months, the cars problems have gotten much worse and whilst it still does the stalling thing, now it's also shifting weirdly (either hanging onto gears or short shifting very quickly through the gears and being very hesitant to downshift) and occasionally going into limp mode (gearbox fault error displayed). This latest batch of issues coincided with an intermittent no crank no start condition and upon an obd2 scan revealed a code for the neutral safety switch, which I'm going to replace as soon as the part arrives.
It's hard to tell if the engine is running well because it feels so slow compared to before due to holding itself in higher gears than it needs to. The engine has intermittently given a misfire code and on one or two occasions it seemed a little rough running but it had been parked for over a month at that point, and when I drove it more that seemed to clear up. I've looked for vacuum leaks and had found a couple but they have not fixed any of the issues. My bank 2 fuel trims are a lot higher than bank 1 which implies a further vacuum leak but I've looked all over and found zilch. I hear a faint hiss coming from the back of the engine but it sounds like it's coming from one of the electrical units on the firewall rather than a pipe.
I have, on one occasion, had a brake light error but checked my brake lights and they were both on. I turned the car off and the error never returned. I know this is a symptom of a faulty brake switch, and it would explain the issue with the cruise control, but could this actually be behind the problem I'm having?
The battery is not new but I've had it checked and am told it is fine. Ive given it a full charge and can see it is putting out 12.7v. It starts the car strongly with no hesitation.
I am assuming this is likely to be electrical but it's not my area of expertise. Does anyone have any ideas of where to start?
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Sept 12, 2022 20:31:12 GMT
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Does this car have inhibitor selector switch ?? I’ve changed one on a mk3 astra auto and currently changing the one on my mk2 Mondeo auto The symptoms were the same as your saying The unit sits on top of the auto box or the side and has a large plug on it for the wiring
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Last Edit: Sept 12, 2022 20:31:30 GMT by Mercdan68
Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
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Sept 12, 2022 20:34:28 GMT
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That’s the unit on a ford auto box Worth checking I’m sure your Jaguar Must have something like this ?
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Last Edit: Sept 12, 2022 20:47:49 GMT by Mercdan68
Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
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Sept 13, 2022 14:19:05 GMT
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Thank you for your reply. I think that is a different name for the neutral switch, which I'm going to be replacing as soon as the new part arrives. Hopefully it works!
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Sept 14, 2022 5:53:22 GMT
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I hope it's a simple fix. It'll be interesting to see what it is. Hopefully, it's not too pricey
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Sept 15, 2022 14:44:44 GMT
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Update.
Today I replaced the Neutral safety switch. For anyone attempting this job, it's very easy so long as you have a ratcheted spanner. 2 x 10mm bolts hold the unit to the bell housing and it is then plugged in at the rear of the engine and fastened by three different metal rings. I removed the air filter piping from the throttle body back to allow room to reach down and unplug it.
Unfortunately it hasn't fully cured the issue. The car does now start on the key, and it does seem to be shifting a little easier when moving, but the gearbox still remains sluggish and unresponsive to my throttle inputs. It barely wants to kick down anymore. I'm thinking theres more than one issue at play here. The fuel trims are a cause for concern so I'll probably spend the next few days hunting for vacuum leaks, and will adjust the throttle cable to make sure that I am getting full range on what.
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Sept 15, 2022 15:47:53 GMT
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have you done a flush and change of the gearbox fluid and filter? Also check cam position sensors and i guess the idel control is part of the drive by wire on these so check the throttle bodies are not all cacked up and all vacuum lines are in good shape
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,191
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Sept 16, 2022 6:17:52 GMT
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Changing the oil on those boxes if it has never been done is a recipe for disaster. The boxes are known for not liking oil changes after being skipped for a long time.
ATF is a detergent, hence why it’s more of a problem.
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Sept 16, 2022 7:43:01 GMT
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The throttle body is about as clean as clean can get, I've made sure its not dirty as one of the first attempts to solve the issue when it first started. Also of note is that I cleaned the connection between the TPS as I know this can be a failure point. Yesterday, I checked the TPS using OBD live data but did not notice anything unusual. No spikes, or flat spots. However I did notice that at wide open throttle it was only showing about 80% open and so i tightened the throttle cable and went for a drive. It hasn't cured the stall but I do think the car is much more willing to kickdown/downshift now. I think the throttle readings might have been throwing the shifts off.
Regarding the gearbox oil. I want to change it but I also have heard that doing a complete flush can damage it. I know you have to drop the sump to remove the filter- could I just remove the sump plug, let as much drain out as possible (probably about half the capacity), refill, drive it for a week, do it again, and keep doing that until the ATF that comes out is clean?
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Sept 16, 2022 8:32:06 GMT
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Is this the ZF 5HP24 box?
Also used in most of the first series of Audi A8 4.2 where it has a a reputation for near 100% failure rate, not helped by Audi saying it’s sealed for life but not mentioning this means a short life.
Consensus seems to be that fluid changes every 40 - 60k more or less eliminates the failures. There is also the occasional story of first changes done at 100k + causing failure but my take on that is that these changes were only done in the first place because the box was already showing signs of ill health!
They also talk of only having changes done by ZF agents with the correct flushing machine - which is a pricey business. Having watched a couple of oil change videos for the Jag, I don’t really see why that’s necessary.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Sept 21, 2022 18:01:56 GMT
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Here is the latest update.
I've been really thinking about this and my opinion is that there may be numerous issues here. I'm wondering whether or not the stuttering and stalling is a separate issue to the limp mode and P1797 fault code.
Today, I drove the car about 30 miles. It was on the motorway so to be honest, I didn't notice any issues as I wasn't slowing down or speeding up enough to cause the gearbox to do much of anything. I was just in 5th gear the whole time. As I reached my destination, I plugged my scanner in to see what the live data was doing and was interested to see that almost exactly as I did that, the dash lit up like a christmas tree with the usual errors of ABS, Traction and Stability control error, and gearbox fault. OBD data revealed that the car was once again reading very high fuel trims (+25) on one bank, the other bank hovering around 0. Code P1797 was confirmed. It's something to do with the CAN.
It was at this point that I thought to check the MAF sensor. I found online the acceptable values at idle and fast idle and my MAF sensor readings were in-line with those. Just out of curiosity, I decided then to unplug the MAF and see what happens. Immediately, the car's idle dropped and it nearly cut out but it then corrected itself. Within probably 5 seconds, it was idling smoothly, no misfires, and no fluctuation to the RPM. I decided to give it a run around the block with the MAF unplugged just to see how it drove. The fuel cut off over 3k rpm caused by restricted performance mode meant I couldn't test the kick down but my initial impression was that the car felt much quicker than it has recently. Pulling away, it felt more responsive and while moving, it was quicker to downshift. It also didn't hold onto gears for too long when shifting up. Most importantly of all, I took it for a roughly 20 minute drive and found that it did not stutter or try to stall at all when coming to stops. I was braced each time I came to a stop but sure enough, every time it was rock solid and didn't give me any issues.
I've been mulling the information over in my head and the hypothesis I have come to, is that the stuttering/stalling is most likely caused by a vacuum leak. With everything plugged in, my understanding is that the engine is dynamically altering it's map based on the MAF readings, but if there is a vacuum leak allowing un-metered air in after the MAF sensor then the air/fuel ratio cannot be right, because more air is entering the engine than the MAF can detect. I'm thinking that unplugging the MAF has forced the engine to run on a default map which is not dependent on MAF readings, so any leaks would not have such a drastic affect on the engine's performance. The reason I suspect a vacuum leak is that the MAF sensor is confirmed working as per the OBD live data, and the fuel trims are telling me that there is a lean condition in one bank. Does that logic make sense, or am I wide of the mark here?
Something else of note is that I had my battery checked today and whilst the voltage is 12.7, the CCA were showing in the 500 range (the battery when new was rated for 800CCA). The battery does not struggle to start the car whatsoever, so perhaps someone with more knowledge could chime in on whether or not the drop of in cranking amps could be causing these electrical gremlins. It does make me think that the battery has seen better days and the drop in CCA might not be a culprit by itself but more of a sign that the battery is internally worn out.
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Sept 21, 2022 21:57:34 GMT
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What method are you using to look for a vacuum leak? The best way I have found is using brake cleaner with the engine running.
Normally unplugging the MAF sensor will make the engine ecu run in closed loop setting, if it feels like it has more power then you could have a faulty maf, but check for air leaks first.
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp 1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon 1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered! 1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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Sept 22, 2022 19:26:52 GMT
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I changed the maf sensor on the Mondeo mk2 I have No difference, then I changed the switch sensor last week as my above pic The car is now running like a dream autobox is working perfectly And the response on kickdown is now very responsive I had changed crank sensor, gearbox sensor Full flush and new fluid before this
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Last Edit: Sept 22, 2022 19:27:38 GMT by Mercdan68
Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
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Sept 22, 2022 20:07:36 GMT
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I think the only way your going to get to the bottom of this Is to take the car to an auto specialist and have them plug it in for you
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Fraud owners club member 1999 Jaguar s type 1993 ford escort
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xfu990
Part of things
Posts: 78
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Sept 22, 2022 21:15:20 GMT
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I can only relate this to trouble I had with my wifes E70 BMW X5 auto. Previous owner had fitted a cheaper battery and coded it to the vehicle. Unfortunetly the battery was wrong for the car. The battery died shortly after I purchased the car, I replaced like for like not knowing it was the wrong type (less CCA). Not long into the ownership I was getting injector faults and gearbox harsh changes with gearbox codes. I investigated further which led to a bigger battery of the correct type. Result gearbox and injector issues went away. Not saying that yours is the same but..........
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Sept 23, 2022 12:40:13 GMT
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I was having a good listen to the engine yesterday. Does anyone else find that after a while it's hard to discern where the hiss is even coming from? It's like you become accustomed to it. Anyhow, I think it may be coming from the Purge Valve on the bulkhead. The part number for this is LNC1515AA. Looks easy to remove- it's just two bolts and two vacuum lines, and an electrical connector. This is an area of the engine bay with a lot of vacuum lines and it's close to the throttle body so it could I suppose be residual noise from that, but a replacement was so cheap I'm pretty happy to just swap it out for a new one and see if it improves things. Will update.
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Sept 27, 2022 11:03:32 GMT
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I fitted the new purge valve. It was not a difficult job, the valve mounts to the firewall with 2 x 10mm bolts. It has one small vacuum line and 2 larger ones which are clipped on. The most difficult part was removing those clips, but I was able to do it with some perseverence. Total time spent was about 30 minutes. Over the last three days, I have been working and not needed to drive- so I stuck the battery on charge for the whole time. It showed as only half charged on the charger when I started.
The new purge valve has solved the hiss noise. I cannot discern any obvious hissing noises now. I drove the car this morning and initially thought "wow, it's fixed!". The car felt fine, it changed gears well, it didn't stutter or stall, it generally felt how it should. I parked it up at a petrol station to fill up and was pulling out of the garage and slowed down to a junction, and it stuttered. Sped up again, slowed, and again, nearly stalled. The rest of the journey it was doing the same old stuff- short shifting to 5th very rapidly, being very slow to downshift (I have to mash the throttle for it to shift down), and nearly cutting out every time I slowed. The only thing I did notice was that I had turned the heater on as I left the petrol station, so maybe the extra load was the culprit. Either way, very annoying as I had gotten my hopes up! I checked the fuel trims at the end of my journey and noted that the fuel trim on bank 2, which was +25, is now +19. It seems to me as though there is another issue at play with regards to the fuel trims. I listened to each fuel injector with a piece of aquarium tubing- all were ticking away heartily but one of them had a "wooosh" noise whereas the others didn't. I wonder if an o-ring has perished and that's causing an air leak and messing the fuel trims up?
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Oct 28, 2022 13:29:55 GMT
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Since last post, there have been a few updates.
I checked using my obd scanner and noticed the bank 2 o2 sensor was showing no volts. If I floored the car, it would rise to roughly 0.5 volts but otherwise was flat lined at 0. The other one was working fine. I spoke to a local mechanic about the issue and he mentioned that the sensor could be a culprit and would be worth checking out. I therefore ordered a replacement one but had to wait ages for it to turn up due to the postal strikes.
For anyone attempting this job, be warned it is extremely difficult and frustrating. It took me around a week on and off. To gain access to the o2 sensor on bank 2, various parts need to be either moved or removed altogether including the exhaust heat shield and coolant reservoir. Access is very limited and most sockets and breaker bars will struggle to fit, and even if they fit, they then will be a challenge to maneuver in the small space available. My sensor was seized and the o2 socket I bought from halfords ended up opening up enough to slip and strip the sensor. In future, if I were to do this again, I would use a jubilee clip over the end of the socket to stop it from splaying out. I ended up having to break the sensor in half leaving just the 22mm bolt part, and hammering a magnusson 12 point 22mm bolt which had enough bite to break the sensor loose. I cannot stress how frustrating this job was. My hands are skinned, and it felt like the car fought me every step of the way.
As for the results, it is as yet inconclusive. The car felt good on a short drive and seemed to be shifting better and more willing to kick down. Pedal response was better. However, it did stall at one point when coming to a stop. This was shortly after it had been turned on after having the battery disconnected for a week so, to give the benefit of the doubt, I think it could be that the car was running strangely because the ECU was relearning it's parameters. After a short drive, when coming to a stop it was solid and did not stall. I did this a few times and the car did not stall and nor did the revs fluctuate, but the jury is still out as far as whether it is a permanent fix or just another false dawn.
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Oct 28, 2022 21:28:13 GMT
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Your dedication and patience are impressive! Hope this does the trick!
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Kelvinator
Part of things
Posts: 654
Member is Online
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Oct 28, 2022 22:05:53 GMT
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Just throwing it out there, but it wouldn't be the first time I have seen an auto that uses data from the MAF, and when the MAF goes bad it causes a whole bunch of shifting and drivability issues. Unplugging the MAF and having it "fix" the issues sounds to me like the MAF isn't operating correctly, as this is one of the common tests you do to check for a failed MAF (and the only way I could limp my old Alfa 156 home after the MAF failed).
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