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May 10, 2022 19:05:05 GMT
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My brother needs to make an aluminium bell housing to adapt a type 9 gearbox to his Mercedes 190e 2.3 16v engine. I thought we could make one out of the bell housing from a broken gearbox. What Mercedes gearboxes have the same bell housing bolt pattern as this engine, so we can widen the search for a suitable item.
Cheers.
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May 10, 2022 20:29:58 GMT
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Mercedes M111 engined cars 1.8/2.0/2.2/2.3/2.3K I.e. W202 C-Class, W208 CLK etc. They are five speed boxes, later versions have a six speed box and that will also has the same pattern. Also some of the diesel boxes have the same bolt pattern too. The 1.8/ 2.0/2.3 190E box will also have the same pattern as there are M102 engined cars and that's what 2.3 & 2.5-16 blocks are based on.
The real man to ask and can tell you off the top of his head is carat 3.6.
Out of curiosity why fit a Type 9? I ask as I only see disadvantages.
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Last Edit: May 11, 2022 7:58:48 GMT by Woofwoof
Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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Mercedes M111 engined cars 1.8/2.0/2.2/2.3/2.3K I.e. W202 C-Class, W208 CLK etc. They are five speed boxes, later versions have a six speed box and that will also has the same pattern. Also some of the diesel boxes have the same bolt pattern too. The 1.8/ 2.0/2.3 190E box will also have the same pattern as there are M102 engined cars and that's what 2.3 & 2.5-16 blocks are based on. The real man to ask and can tell you off the top of his head is carat 3.6. Out why fit a Type 9? I ask as I only see disadvantages. Thanks for the info Woodwoof. The standard gearbox is a dog leg pattern. Not only is this a pain normally, but the linkage on these gearboxes is dreadful. With the gear stick bolted to the car and the box moving with the engine, the issues are compounded. This engine is not in a Mercedes, it’s in a Gilbern Gennie rally car so no originality will be lost. There’s some photos of it in my fleet thread if your interested. Once again thanks for the info. Now to find a knackered gearbox for the right price. |
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Ah,I see.
Linkage problem is simply due to wear. If the link bushes (6) and linkage arms are adjusted correctly for length that's half the problem sorted. Then there's the gear lever yoke that wears along with bushes, etc. It's so common on high mileage Mercs that there's a kit available for this repair.
Contrary to popular belief, the dogleg Getrag is excellent once there's not excessive wear in the lever and linkage.
Far easier & cheaper to attend to the linkage rather than do anything else. BTW, all other suitable five speed Merc boxes have the same gear linkage set up.
I'm guessing but I'd expect the Getrag to be far stronger than the Type 9.
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Last Edit: May 11, 2022 7:58:01 GMT by Woofwoof
Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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Ah,I see. Linkage problem is simply due to wear. If the link bushes (6) and linkage arms are adjusted correctly for length that's half the problem sorted. Then there's the gear lever yoke that wears along with bushes, etc. It's so common on high mileage Mercs that there's a kit available for this repair. Contrary to popular belief, the dogleg Getrag is excellent once there's not excessive wear in the lever and linkage. Far easier & cheaper to attend to the linkage rather than do anything else. BTW, all other suitable five speed Merc boxes have the same gear linkage set up. I'm guessing but I'd expect the Getrag to be far stronger than the Type 9.T9 isn't strong enough for one of Ford's weak V6s. It certainly isn't worth swapping onto an engine that already has a usable gearbox. Especially now that you can't buy one for £50 with a free car to drive it home in  |
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I'd agree for a road car but for a rally car there are a lot of much stronger competition gearsets available for the type 9 in a wide range of ratios.
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Don’t worry everyone. It’s not having a standard Type 9. It’s having a Tracksport gear kit fitted with needle rollers. The guy who builds the kit used to work for Quaife so definitely knows how a curse word gearbox is made so has designed this one to work.
The Tranx gearbox in my Escort can cope with 250 bhp and this is reputedly stronger with the needle rollers and light weight gears so the synchros don’t get smashed.
I suppose there are many better competition gearboxes out there but come with hefty price tags. This is £1200.
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Ah,I see. Linkage problem is simply due to wear. If the link bushes (6) and linkage arms are adjusted correctly for length that's half the problem sorted. Then there's the gear lever yoke that wears along with bushes, etc. It's so common on high mileage Mercs that there's a kit available for this repair. Contrary to popular belief, the dogleg Getrag is excellent once there's not excessive wear in the lever and linkage. Far easier & cheaper to attend to the linkage rather than do anything else. BTW, all other suitable five speed Merc boxes have the same gear linkage set up. I'm guessing but I'd expect the Getrag to be far stronger than the Type 9. The gear ratios are also a problem. Even with a really high diff ratio- I think it’s around 3-1, first gear is far to low. It like it’s been chosen for hill starts with a caravan behind. It’s also having a diff ratio change to complement the gearbox |
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Yeah, 1st is very low. The g/box was originally geared as a four speed using first to get the car rolling.
Whatever you do don't cut the bell housing off the Getrag. A good box is worth money and a lot more selling the engine and box combined obviously depending on condition.
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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May 12, 2022 13:02:45 GMT
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Yeah, 1st is very low. The g/box was originally geared as a four speed using first to get the car rolling. Whatever you do don't cut the bell housing off the Getrag. A good box is worth money and a lot more selling the engine and box combined obviously depending on condition. He’s not going to cut the box up, as like you say it’s worth a bit of money that will go towards the gear kit. Hopefully we can get a cheap gearbox locally to cut up. |
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May 12, 2022 21:23:42 GMT
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Don’t worry everyone. It’s not having a standard Type 9. It’s having a Tracksport gear kit fitted with needle rollers. The guy who builds the kit used to work for Quaife so definitely knows how a curse word gearbox is made so has designed this one to work. The Tranx gearbox in my Escort can cope with 250 bhp and this is reputedly stronger with the needle rollers and light weight gears so the synchros don’t get smashed. I suppose there are many better competition gearboxes out there but come with hefty price tags. This is £1200. Not to be funny, but if that gear kit can only handle 250hp it isnt going to last long behind the 16v. If you haven't parted with any money for the type 9 yet, take a look at the Merc 6 speed cdi gearboxes from the w203. Those are a direct fit to your 16v engine and are far stronger that any re-worked type 9 ever will be, £300 from anywhere you look and safe up to 450nm/380ftlb. Or if you want an absolutely bombproof gearbox, there are adapter kits to fit the BMW gs6 gearbox to the merc engines. Safe up to 1200nm/800ftlb. |
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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May 12, 2022 22:02:42 GMT
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Don’t worry everyone. It’s not having a standard Type 9. It’s having a Tracksport gear kit fitted with needle rollers. The guy who builds the kit used to work for Quaife so definitely knows how a curse word gearbox is made so has designed this one to work. The Tranx gearbox in my Escort can cope with 250 bhp and this is reputedly stronger with the needle rollers and light weight gears so the synchros don’t get smashed. I suppose there are many better competition gearboxes out there but come with hefty price tags. This is £1200. Not to be funny, but if that gear kit can only handle 250hp it isnt going to last long behind the 16v. If you haven't parted with any money for the type 9 yet, take a look at the Merc 6 speed cdi gearboxes from the w203. Those are a direct fit to your 16v engine and are far stronger that any re-worked type 9 ever will be, £300 from anywhere you look and safe up to 450nm/380ftlb. Or if you want an absolutely bombproof gearbox, there are adapter kits to fit the BMW gs6 gearbox to the merc engines. Safe up to 1200nm/800ftlb. As usual Simon, great info. Top man. |
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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Don’t worry everyone. It’s not having a standard Type 9. It’s having a Tracksport gear kit fitted with needle rollers. The guy who builds the kit used to work for Quaife so definitely knows how a curse word gearbox is made so has designed this one to work. The Tranx gearbox in my Escort can cope with 250 bhp and this is reputedly stronger with the needle rollers and light weight gears so the synchros don’t get smashed. I suppose there are many better competition gearboxes out there but come with hefty price tags. This is £1200. Not to be funny, but if that gear kit can only handle 250hp it isnt going to last long behind the 16v. If you haven't parted with any money for the type 9 yet, take a look at the Merc 6 speed cdi gearboxes from the w203. Those are a direct fit to your 16v engine and are far stronger that any re-worked type 9 ever will be, £300 from anywhere you look and safe up to 450nm/380ftlb. Or if you want an absolutely bombproof gearbox, there are adapter kits to fit the BMW gs6 gearbox to the merc engines. Safe up to 1200nm/800ftlb. Thanks for the info Carat. Apparently with the type 9 it’s not the bhp that kills them, it’s the rpm. The standard set up runs dry at higher rpm hence the needle roller mod. The TranX in my car is rated at 250bhp and these are apparently better. The car is only just over 200bhp now running on 48s but will soon be 230 bhp. Size is another constraint. 6 speed boxes tend to be quite bulky and with the chassis construction of the Gilbern the tunnel can’t be any bigger as you can’t fit seats in there properly as it is. |
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,948 
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Mercedes Gearboxmk2cossie
@mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member 77
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Easiest way of making something fit the Mercedes engine would be to use the bellhousing off an autobox surely? Or are they too small a diameter for the flywheel and clutch setup?  |
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Easiest way of making something fit the Mercedes engine would be to use the bellhousing off an autobox surely? Or are they too small a diameter for the flywheel and clutch setup? I’m assuming the flex plate is the same size as a flywheel for the ring gear to mesh with the starter. Torque converters are pretty bulky too compared to a clutch. Do the bell housings unbolt from an auto? |
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Not to be funny, but if that gear kit can only handle 250hp it isnt going to last long behind the 16v. If you haven't parted with any money for the type 9 yet, take a look at the Merc 6 speed cdi gearboxes from the w203. Those are a direct fit to your 16v engine and are far stronger that any re-worked type 9 ever will be, £300 from anywhere you look and safe up to 450nm/380ftlb. Or if you want an absolutely bombproof gearbox, there are adapter kits to fit the BMW gs6 gearbox to the merc engines. Safe up to 1200nm/800ftlb. Thanks for the info Carat. Apparently with the type 9 it’s not the bhp that kills them, it’s the rpm. The standard set up runs dry at higher rpm hence the needle roller mod. The TranX in my car is rated at 250bhp and these are apparently better. The car is only just over 200bhp now running on 48s but will soon be 230 bhp. Size is another constraint. 6 speed boxes tend to be quite bulky and with the chassis construction of the Gilbern the tunnel can’t be any bigger as you can’t fit seats in there properly as it is. I've no idea on how much space you have in the tunnel but the 6 speed is a few inches longer than the getrag you have now, no wider and does have a proper gear lever. If you still want to go with the type 9, Ssangyong used Merc engines with some interesting gearboxs that might help. The rexton or cryon had a T5 fitted with a merc bellhousing, that one is removable and might be a similar flange to your type 9. |
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1988 Mercedes w124 superturbo diesel 508hp
1996 Mercedes s124 e300 diesel wagon
1990 BMW E30 V8 M60 powered!
1999 BMW E46 323ci project car
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May 13, 2022 17:38:30 GMT
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Cheers Carat. Thanks for the info. I’ll let him know👍
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