madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Mar 27, 2022 16:48:34 GMT
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My mate is thinking of blasting or dipping and/or e-coating his MGB shell and asked me for advice but I've no idea so I'm asking here.
What processes are available these days? What should be avoided and is there an agreed best process? I've heard blasting distorts panels and leaves dust in very crevice. I've also heard that dipping can leave the corrosive fluid in the nooks and crannies of the body to cause problems later? What process do the experts recommend?
Secondly what's the typical cost and finally, can anyone recommend somewhere in Essex?
Thanks
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lmr
Part of things
Posts: 50
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Mar 27, 2022 19:16:34 GMT
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I had some panels dipped and coated by a well known company. One panel came back with a bend in it. The coating was pretty hopeless - it came off in sheets when my bodywork chap started prepping them for paint. The inside of the doors also were left left with big lumps of debris, presumably reside from the stripping process. A friend of mine had a complete body shell done, that came back and was a brilliant job. So for a complete shell, its probably a good process, for individual panels, no, I wouldn't recommend.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Mar 27, 2022 19:28:02 GMT
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It's a potentially complete bodyshell job, not individual panels.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Mar 27, 2022 19:29:09 GMT
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I had some panels dipped and coated by a well known company. One panel came back with a bend in it. The coating was pretty hopeless - it came off in sheets when my bodywork chap started prepping them for paint. The inside of the doors also were left left with big lumps of debris, presumably reside from the stripping process. A friend of mine had a complete body shell done, that came back and was a brilliant job. So for a complete shell, its probably a good process, for individual panels, no, I wouldn't recommend. Who did the complete shell and was it the same company as your panels? Just wondering if it is a hit and miss process or some companies good, some bad.
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Mar 27, 2022 21:28:05 GMT
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Retropower have done a pretty comprehensive video explaining why they came to using the blasting setup they use in preference to dipping, many downsides to dipping, especially for complete shells.
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Mar 27, 2022 21:29:55 GMT
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,710
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Mar 27, 2022 22:25:15 GMT
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Avoid dipping. It has many pitfalls.
Stuff only gets bent by blasting if the blaster is a rough ar$e. I can recommend a guy in Essex (near Colchester) who is absolutely brilliant and definitely won’t damage your stuff. I’ve been using him for years with no issues.
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Mar 27, 2022 22:33:38 GMT
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Is anyone running one of these beasts commercially for restoration work?
Last time I checked, cost of a 1kW pulsed fibre laser with a self focusing head was a bit north of $400k. Don't know how that compares to a commercial blasting setup.
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Mar 28, 2022 14:18:01 GMT
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Blasting is best.
Blasting only distorts panels if the operator doesn't know what they're doing. A lot of blast cleaners fall into that category, but it may not be their fault per se, as they may not be used to such thin steel/panels.
Someone blasting structures and chassis' can use very cheap/highly abrasive blasting media at the highest pressure, with no risk of distortion. With thin, shaped panels, the operator needs to understand pressures, different types of media and concentration of heat, so stick to a specialist.
Media will be left behind in every crevice, so take some proper time to clean out every last corner with an air gun. It will take some doing, but its worth it. Again, sand (cheap media) will cause more problems with that than other media.
Most specialists will use a combination of different media on every job.
Watch Retropower's video. Their set-up is built purely for doing their cars and they understand exactly what is required from the process and the downsides to it and the pitfalls that can occur if it is carried out incorrectly. Nat is very good at explaining things too.
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Specialist Bodyshop & Fabrication Classic, Retro, Prestige & Custom Small Repairs to Concours Restorations Mechanical Work Vintage to Modern
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Avoid dipping. It has many pitfalls. Stuff only gets bent by blasting if the blaster is a rough ar$e. I can recommend a guy in Essex (near Colchester) who is absolutely brilliant and definitely won’t damage your stuff. I’ve been using him for years with no issues. Thanks Dez. Can you let me know his details please? Also, what does the process typically cost? Thanks
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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The answer isn't as simple as people make out. Both processes have thier upsides and downsides. Both processes can be done badly and even if done by experienced professionals can go wrong to some extent.
Firstly blasting
I'm fairly experienced in blasting panels and shells and can tell you it's not just a case of 'rough' blasters not giving a damn and warping panels as people may think. All blasting comes with a risk of warping. I'm careful and have had many panels warp unfortunately. The risk really comes down to the media and pressures used. You will probably hear of people using walnut shell or soda to blast cars to avoid damage.. great but it wont easily cut through layers of old filler and paint and certainly wont 'cut' the steel enough to remove rust. The reality is you will have to strip large panels by hand first and then find a blaster who is disciplined enough to not go near the cosmetic panels on the car. Even then its risky. It's not easy to do yourself let alone find someone else to trust with it! You will also find the car needs to be acid treated after blasting anyway if you really want to protect it from rust. Blasting might make it look like all the rust has gone but in reality it is still there deep in the 'pores' of the steel and can only effectively be neutralised with a phosphoric spray/dip.. (incidentally the same thing they will dip your car in to get rid of the rust). The main downside of blasting in my opinion tho is it simply cant get to alot of the surfaces! You cant blast inside box sections, seams etc!
Dipping i have less experience with on a 'whole shell' basis although i do use pretty much the same system for smaller parts. Absolute main benefit of dipping (as mentioned) is it gets to the whole shell! You need to make sure all box sections are drilled to allow the stripper and acid to easily and freely get to all areas (and drain from all areas!). As mentioned it will also chemically neutralise rust as well. The main problem with dipping as people allude to is the stripper soaking into seams and then are emerging after a car has been painted. Any buisness properly setup for this (I only know two) will do heat cycles and washes to mitigate that (note I say mitigate not totally eliminate).
I've got to say i am much more a fan of dipping than of blasting. Blasting works ok on stuff thats less cosmetic and delicate and that maybe you don't care so much about. Dipping comes with much much less risk of actual damage do stuff like car shells. Essentially the only thing your going to damage is paint and rust not the underlying fabric of the car! A bit of paint damage is easiky reversible. A bowed roof skin isnt. That said I do both. My Bedford van will be dipped when I get around to doing that. Trying the blast it would be disastrous as some panels are just so thin they wouldn't hold up. To blast it I'd have to start removing the wings (which you cant get replacements for!) It would be a nightmare. My transit chassis on the other hand was blasted.. its stout 2-3mm steel and it's just a transit chassis.
Also worth mentioning theres only really 2 proper places I know of doing dipping for shells. Surface processing in Dudley would be my go to. Envrio strip in Tamworth does similar but they use an oven based system to strip the paint to get rid of the paint work. (And alledgidly get rid of the risk of lost dipping paint damage) I've not felt with them tho. It seems a bit iffy to heat the shell to me? None the less I wouldn't trust any other company. Most bad experiences have come from people using companies thay just don't understand cars and don't handle them correctly.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Thanks Slater. All food for thought.
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Apr 11, 2022 13:09:42 GMT
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one thing to bear in mind of more modern cars (last 25 years or so) is that they use weld through adhesives to improve the structural performance of spot welded joints dipping or burning the paint off destroys this and you can't replace it.
on older stuff I would cut open/ remove things like rusty sills, wings, rotten door skins etc which you intend to replace add some bracing if that weakens it then get it blasted. Many of them do a follow up zinc rich paint process which is worth considering, whatever you do it will need some sort of paint on it straight away as the bare metal rusts very quickly.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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It's an MGB from the late '70s so no adhesives, weirdy boron steels or anything but rusty mild steel.
But yes, point taken, moderns cars are only good for drivetrains and seats, or maybe a kitcar at a push.
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I'd also suggest that moderns are also useful to pull acres of colour-coded wire from, as well as fuses and sometimes buckets of nice yellow-zinc fasteners in all sorts of odd shapes and sizes.
I've used MJK Blasting in Horley for my Spitfire. Did a good job, and had boatloads of various car panels around in the queue for work which suggests he knows what he's doing with car panels.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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I'd also suggest that moderns are also useful to pull acres of colour-coded wire from, as well as fuses and sometimes buckets of nice yellow-zinc fasteners in all sorts of odd shapes and sizes. I've used MJK Blasting in Horley for my Spitfire. Did a good job, and had boatloads of various car panels around in the queue for work which suggests he knows what he's doing with car panels. Thanks. Yes and seats. Seats can be useful - if they don't run all their electric controls through an ECU that isn't on the seat and even the local dealership's service department can't find a wiring diagram. Talking about you VW Phaeton luring me in with your 16 way seats with massage and air con function.
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wildy
Part of things
Posts: 134
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I'm currently part way through a restoration where the shell was dipped. To answer your questions I would ask your mate a few questions:
Why dipping/blasting, what is your mate hoping to get from this?
Is the car rare/valuable or sentimental?
Who is going to do the work on the car, broken down into: stripping (prior to dipping)/metal work repairs/prep and paint/rebuild?
How much money/time is your mate looking to put into this?
Why doesnt he buy a Heritage shell?
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Last Edit: Apr 17, 2022 9:46:53 GMT by wildy
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Apr 18, 2022 16:14:34 GMT
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I'm currently part way through a restoration where the shell was dipped. To answer your questions I would ask your mate a few questions: 1 Why dipping/blasting, what is your mate hoping to get from this? 2 Is the car rare/valuable or sentimental? 3 Who is going to do the work on the car, broken down into: stripping (prior to dipping)/metal work repairs/prep and paint/rebuild? 4 How much money/time is your mate looking to put into this? 5 Why doesnt he buy a Heritage shell? 1. To see any hidden damage an sort once and for all 2. Not valuable but sentimental 3. Him and his brother in law. They're going to re-spray anyway & have already stripped it to a bare shell. They don't want some hidden problem bubbling up after painting it. 4. Too much. It would be cheaper and quicker to buy a good runner but sentiment, he's had it from nearly new. 5. Heritage shell over £14,000!
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wildy
Part of things
Posts: 134
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Apr 18, 2022 17:00:03 GMT
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I'm currently part way through a restoration where the shell was dipped. To answer your questions I would ask your mate a few questions: 1 Why dipping/blasting, what is your mate hoping to get from this? 2 Is the car rare/valuable or sentimental? 3 Who is going to do the work on the car, broken down into: stripping (prior to dipping)/metal work repairs/prep and paint/rebuild? 4 How much money/time is your mate looking to put into this? 5 Why doesnt he buy a Heritage shell? 1. To see any hidden damage an sort once and for all 2. Not valuable but sentimental 3. Him and his brother in law. They're going to re-spray anyway & have already stripped it to a bare shell. They don't want some hidden problem bubbling up after painting it. 4. Too much. It would be cheaper and quicker to buy a good runner but sentiment, he's had it from nearly new. 5. Heritage shell over £14,000! Ok,here goes: I have paid to have all the work done elsewhere, I have enough knowledge/experience to know when to get involved and when not to. Sentiment is driving my project forward. The dipping or blasting is the start of the process. It shows up some of the bad areas. What it doesnt show is inside box sections or areas where there are two or three skins pressed together. This is where marque/restoration experts come in. Once stripped it would still be preferable to pull apart areas that look ok. In my case the dipping showed up some 'interesting' previous repairs. What it didn't show was the areas such as inside A posts that were gone. Strut tops that were missing the odd layer. My shell needed approx £5k investing in welding/new panels. Luckily most parts were available aftermarket, as I imagine they are for an MGB. Once the shell was repaired it then needs painting. There are lots of people who can do this for you, or not. If your friend and his BIL have access to facilities or bags of enthusiasm then I wish them good luck. What I would say is this: most restoration companies that offer a good prep/paint service have a waiting list. In 2019 I was being quoted 2 years plus. Your average accident repair type shop don't usually have the facilities or the space for this type of project, or get curse word off with it and rush it to get it out of the way. (I had one place lined up to do the paint but they backed out at the 11th hour). I was told by a few knowledgeable people that 220 man hours is about the starting point for a full shell prep and paint inside/outside/underneath. In my case it ran to just over 300 man hours (just prep and paint plus some areas that they weren't happy with, door bottoms/bonnet lip). Plus the materials of course. In 2019 I paid around £2k for the dipping and coating of my shell. The restorers that I have spoken to all said the same thing: Nobody seems to recommend one particular company. Quality seems to fluctuate from one job to the next. Some companies do industrial dipping and cars are just a sideline. Others claim to specialise in cars. Most seem to have experienced some degree of damage to vehicles. So advice: if you send to a dipper take lots of pictures when it goes and check carefully when its returned. So to sum up its about £2k, but in my opinion there is no point unless you're willing to go the whole way and rip it apart once dipped and repair everything. I think too many people see dipping as a shortcut and then give it a quick respray after and hence problems arise. Its not a quick fix and it leads to great expense (less so if you're doing the work yourself). And if your doing the work yourself then timeframes need to be considered. It could easily run to £25k upwards, so you can see why £14k for a heritage shell might not be such a bad option.... Anything else just ask.
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Last Edit: Apr 18, 2022 17:01:29 GMT by wildy
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,152
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Apr 18, 2022 17:03:49 GMT
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Many thanks Wildy, I will pass on the info.
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