cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,580
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I know this is a subject covered before but who doesnt love a Welding thread. I'm looking at buying a welder for the first time and starting to build up to the possibility of repairing my old Fords now i'm doing a lot more on my own cars mechanically.
The work that needs to be done on my Cars are: Escort inner front wing(s), patch to inner and outer sill, floor is looking a bit rotten behind the drivers seat. Capri wing rail, possibly lower wing skin, top mount possibly in the future. Only the inner wings and floor probably need to be done soon, the other stuff is lighter/ more solid.
I'm thinking the floor and the top mount I might still need a professional at this point but, if I could cut down the list and anything smaller I could do, that would be amazing.
Back to the welder...
I am a total novice and still researching what settings i need to look for but from other posts I'm thinking I could probably buy a second hand Clarke pro90 Clarke 150 or 151 machines on ebay to start with and leave me room for Gas, PPE/clamps and magnets? I also see people mention the Sealey products but I havent looked at them that much.
I've also seen people say spend £500 on an RTec welder and your sorted but i'm not sure if I should try and get into this cheaply first with a second hand Clark (or similar) to see how I get on? I also realise there is no point in struggling if technology has moved on. Obviously it will be more satisfying if something produces better welds.
Budget wise I havent got that finalised as I know things will pop up I've forgotten. I'm just trying to figure out realistically what I should be spending for what I want. I keep looking at cheaper second hand machines to be realistic.
Where I'll be welding...
If I cant find a space to work the only place I have is my small driveway. I'm sure I would have to put up some baffles etc because of the neighbours and any wind. We have a 13amp plug near the front door so should be ok there. Is there anything I need to watch with the house electrics though? I don't want to burn anything out as we rent/misses will kill me.
Working outside i've read that I might struggle with Gas but, a lot of people seem to think Gasless welders are horrible objects... I know a lot of these machines do both but, any advice here?
Tuition...
Lastly and I guess also very importantly. I was thinking like most things I do, buying one, getting on youtube for a few hours and having a go at welding some bits of scrap before going anywhere near my Cars. My misses wants me to find a course though for safety reasons (shes probably right) and the only thing I can find is a city & guilds level 1 for 9 weeks near me which might not work as I struggle to have a regular work routine. What would you guys do? I know some places do specific welding course/classic car restoration courses but... its a lot of money.
I'm going to join a welding forum too but I thought I'd get some nice real world advice here of welding 80s tin on your drive way.
Cheers!!!
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First off there's no need to pay out for a course, second you can weld outside with a gas mig just be wary of strong breezes. Nothing to worry about using the 13A ring main in the house, I run my 175A mig from the same in the shed. Lastly, practice, practice, practice. Pop to the breakers and get a scrap panel to cut up and stick back together.
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IME the usual reason for a mig to be for sale secondhand is because it's no bl#@dy good!
I'd save the money and buy new, even if it's a cheapy
Also welding isn't something you can really learn from a book, there's no substitute for picking up the torch and having a go
Just start tacking bits of steel together, try different settings and test your welds to destruction, that's the best way to learn
It's very satisfying when it goes well, and if it doesn't, well just stop and come back when your head is in a better place
Good luck
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Oh and CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN!
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I bought mine 2nd hand, wasn't welding for the PO so I replaced the earth lead which was the original cheapy thing.
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I’m not responding as a good welder, more as someone who’s come from a similar position. But I’d cautiously disagree with this
though the new R-tech inverter mig we’ve just got is better, the 151te it replaced was fine, certainly for 1/3 price of the R-tech. I don’t think we’d have made the most of the R-tech at the start anyway.
I bought the 151 on recommendation, and have heard of other who’ve struggled with the wrong unit from new.
But agree, if you can afford a well reputed new unit then that potentially removes one variable.
An inverter model will be more adjustable than the conventional ones, our 151 had 6 settings (1, 2, 3 with high and low in each) where the R-tech has a dial. But both are capable, we just struggled at lower power levels, when at times we wanted it between settings
The Amps will give an idea to the thickness they can weld, so all your suggestions will probably be fine for panels, but the 90 may not be up to chassis plates
And total agree get some scrap and have a play rather than a paying for a course, there is no substitute for experience as said (did a 1/2 day tig course with Tom, but we’d been playing for about 6 months by then so had some basics, so there may be some benefit later on)
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I'm not saying that all secondhand migs are no good, just that the ones I've bought weren't up to much, that's my personal experience
Also from someone who tends to produce strong welds,rather than pretty ones😁
I now have £600ish of parweld, can't remember the model off the top of my head, but my welding improved immesurably after its purchase
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I’d say anyone can weld. If you try it and your no good, it’s because something is wrong- setting/ techniques. Some people will be fantastic welders but there generally doing it day in day out. The rest of us get by with adequate welds. Let’s face it, you’ll grind most of it off anyway.
I used an 150 Clarke for years and was brilliant on thick stuff but on body work where you just wanted to spot here and there to avoid distortion it either didn’t penetrate well or was too fierce. I bought an rtec about 4 years ago and it really does flatter my ability on the thin stuff.
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am self taught at welding 2 years ago i signed up to local training centre for pt welding night classes, first year level 2 tig 2nd yeAR WHICH ENDED IN JUNE LEVEL 2 mig and ive applied for level 3 and have an interview on the 27th of this month and am 52 , very cheap and safe way to leARN .i had 30 years experiemce yet still found it hard enough ,but a brillant and cheap way to learn you l be amazed at the amount of equipment you go through for the price of the course,it last for a year
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I concluded that Clarke made usable machines and bought a 110E to learn with. I deliberately got the lowest power machine I could because I knew I was going to be on thin metal. The wing is only 0.8mm and I do need the lowest power setting.
It's been great and although I have nothing to compare it against I still think it's a great little machine. I didn't go on any courses either.
Only now am I good enough to be wanting the additional control that I'd get from an inverter MIG. Up until the last year it'd have been a waste. It might have been counter productive. I've got 4 power settings at the moment meaning that it's not too hard to get in the ball park even if you know nothing. And I've had to learn techniques to cope with the fact that I'm restricted in power adjustment which may well make me a better welder in the long run. (Using the length of time I hold the trigger down to control the heat in the joint.)
Practice forever. It's the only way.
The difference between having a weld not penetrate and sit on the top and blowing a hole can be a fraction of a second on the trigger. Eventually you get better at spotting the moment the weld 'sits down' and you know it's penetrated. Actually I'm not sure you 'spot' it because it's probably too late by then. I think you anticipate it.
Two other bits of advice. Don't worry about blowing holes in things. Instead, learn to deal with them. It only takes a slightly thinner panel where you don't expect it and you'll have a hole. They are a fact of life. Just learn how to deal with them.
And you will get times when you get junk in the weld pool because you can't clean it properly. Again, learn to spot it, stop, grind it back and try again. But don't keep trying to weld over the junk 'cos it won't get better.
No problem welding outside. Do it on a calm day and run a bit more gas. Welding upside down is much more of a pain in the bum.
One more thing. Make sure you are well protected. If you are in a tight corner or upside down tiny blobs of hot metal will bounce off the floor and into your shoes, down your shirt, or (somehow) down your ears. Personal safety aside, welding takes concentration and you will not concentrate when your ear wax is fizzing. I look like a total dork when I'm fully kitted up but I know I don't have to worry about me and can concentrate on what I'm doing.
Good luck! Welding is a cool skill to learn. Everybody should do it.
James
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Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
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As others have said. Welding is practice, don’t know who said it but “if you can’t weld well, weld loads” is a mantra to live by. I am pretty much self taught, tutored by people that really can weld plus YouTube and practice but I made a massive leap forward in my welding when I invested in a good quality helmet. You don’t realise how bad the cheap ones are until you use a good one. There are loads to choose from but I bought a 3m Speedglass 100 after using a friends. P.  |
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75swb
Beta Tester
Posts: 1,012
Club RR Member Number: 181
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Preface this with, I am not a welder!
I did a course, mostly for the H&S aspect, and to learn the basics.
-Gloves, overalls over long boots, buy the best auto-dimming mask you can, and disconnect the battery when welding on things with batteries; that's the H&S pretty much covered.
-Google "Spark test" to confirm what you're welding.
-It's very easy to stack up pennies with BOC's finest industrial welder on super clean, super thick steel, especially when someone else has done the set-up.
It didn't teach me a heap about real-world welding; that's the practise element. I probably wouldn't recommend a course; it got me over the initial fear, but I was being overly scared thinking it was some sort of witchcraft, but I could have learnt most of it with a quick google, and spent the money on a better welder, which would have helped my welding more. oh, and practise.
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ferny
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 981
Club RR Member Number: 13
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I would actually sign up for an evening class if you have one locally. I work in a college and signed up to ours (it wasn't great) but just having a trained person give a couple of pointers or say what I was doing was correct helped massively. Basically, you'll be able to make mistakes at their cost and get told how to correct them. You'll also learn what the settings do on a machine of a higher standard to what you'll buy - basically you'll be buying with experience and knowledge later when you get your own kit.
I taught myself how to weld and apparently did an ok job. It took a lot of grinding disc's and cockups to get there though.
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lord13
Part of things
Posts: 536
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Welding is an art form to get it right. Anyone can stick two pieces of metal together with pretty much any type of kit, but to get your welding to be a good welding takes practice, and lots of it. Start with a cheap second hand machine, or if your budget allows, a brand new cheap hobby mig with only 3 or 4 settings (any more and you will be constantly fiddling about with the dials). I actually use the disposable hobby gas bottles with my portable set up as its easier to move around. I also find that the co2 bottles last longer and weld cleaner than the argon mix disposables, but other people will tell you different, because it will be different for other people, and in all honesty I use an argon mix proper gas bottle with my big kit but that only has to move a few feet for each job. You get a 'feel' for what works best as you work, every day could be different, but if you have your basic settings in the ball park for the job, any small adjustments can be made to compensate for the weather, cheap steel, day of the week, micro changes in air density, that sort of thing. . . Basically buy the best you can afford and practice, practice, practice. Oh and buy a good helmet, bad ones will do their level best to really p you off |
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visit this Forum and read the guides. www.mig-welding.co.ukSign up and introduce yourself. You will find a fair few members are on both these forums. |
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I use a 30 year old Clarke 150 and although my welds are not always pretty and often need a bit of cleaning up they are strong, cleaning up the metal beforehand and regularly changing the copper tip make a world of difference, on thin metal I usually pulse weld, which helps with burn through, also as said above don't worry about the odd hole, they area easy enough to weld up and it means you are getting good penetration.
Floors are one of the easiest places to start, largely flat panels, not massively important in terms of dimensions and virtually all horizontal. Inner wings will need a bit more care to get them in the right place, either use pieces of rod to form locators or careful measurements.
One mistake beginners often make is trying to save too much metal, don't be afraid to cut a bigger area back to get to really sound metal, the amount of welding is often not that different in the end and it's so much easier than trying to weld pitted or thinned steel.
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Small cheap welders are capable of good work on cars if you know what you're doing. But they're awful things to learn on due to insufficient settings and weak wire feed. Used ones that have been languishing in a shed don't help.
It's even worse if you don't have someone competent, both in welding and instruction, to show you the basics. An hour spent with that person will save you days of grief and piles of material or spoilt work.
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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A course wont teach you to weld cars. Unless somones specifically doing a car bodywork course it wouldnt be relevant.
I would just go for the R-tec and be done with it. Its will keep its value if you did decide it wasnt for you. Theres usually nothing wrong with 2nd hand machines but if your a novice you might not spot a dud and be chasing your tail alot.
Nearly all of the skill is in the prep imo. Sticking it together is easy if the prep is good and your patient.
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cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,580
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Hey guys thanks for all these replies. Taking it all on board and still just looking at my options. I'm not going to rush in but definitely will be either buying something soon or at least going on that day course to see what its all about.
I signed up to the mig welding website. Introduced myself there and people have started responding with ideas. I have been told FluxCore would be good as I'm working outside but I might try and avoid that as i've heard a lot of bad stuff about it. It looks fairly toxic to the user and i'm really trying not to damage myself to save a few hundred quid etc. safety is my main concern here apart from buying the wrong machine.
Still trying to weigh up the second hand thing. I don't want to be chasing my tail and I know what thats like as most thing I buy are second hand. I might see if I can find an obvious genuine sale though. If I could find something with two masks I think I could probably practice at my folks/dads little garage first before battling it with the Car.
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60six
Posted a lot
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Posts: 1,654
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If you can afford it, I bought a blackline inverter MIG/MMA welder for around 150, and a huge argon/co2 mix for 80. I *thought* I was pretty good having welded lots of steel stuff, but when I tried welding stainless exhaust downpipes - HAS to be airtight - V-band adapters are hard work, warping if you don't use a heatsink - and you have to clean everything with acetone (nail varnish remover) & flappy grinder discs - still couldn't make it airtight so had to give it to a pro welder to do.
I didn't do a course - I bought a saab needing the driveshaft tunnels welded and did that successfully. You know you are doing it right when the sound the welding makes is right.
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Some 9000's, a 900, an RX8 & a beetle
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