stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Think this is the right section, not 100% sure. Anyway, I found this Renault F7R bottom end in my lockup the other day. I've had the lockup for nearly 15 years and I remember putting it in there the first time I visited, and then completely forgot about it. I'm gonna stick it up for sale when it's done, but thought people might be interested in seeing it get the full Cinderella treatment along with any tips I can think of. This is the starting point. Can definitely tell its been stood for a long time. Luckily I'd had the forethought to stand it upside down so although the deck face is rusty there's only a tiny bit of surface rust at the very top of the bores and it wasn't seized.    First tip I can give - most people have camera phones or digital cameras now. Use it! Makes it so much easier having a few reference photos to go back to if you're unsure of how things go together. I then started stripping it. It's best to be careful at this point. It's a lot faster to strip it carefully than it is to strip it with a rattle gun then drill broken bolts out. Take extra care with aluminium parts, they tend to get seized onto any dowels that are present on older stuff.   The critical thing to do when stripping a engine is to mark up the main caps (unless factory numbered), big end caps for both cylinder and direction, and in the case of heads the cam caps too. In this case the main caps are numbered, but because Renault they number them backwards with 1 being at the flywheel end. With factory numbered caps I always mark the front cap (pulley end) with a single centre punch dot, placed towards the front of the engine on the cap so it shows direction. This then shows you which way up the numbers face so you can work the rest out. (I'll add photos of this once they're clean you can't really see on a dirty engine). Big ends is similar, centre punch the corresponding number of dots to which cylinder the cap is from, towards the front of the block. Another tip - if the engine uses tagged bearings (most older stuff will) 99% of the main/big end caps will have the tag cutout on the same side, so will be 'tag to tag'. Makes it easier to work out which way the caps go on if they're not marked. Some engines (such as this one) had either tagged or tagless bearings depending on year. This one is tagless which means its from a Renault Megane or Spider. Once fully stripped you'll then have a pile of manky discoloured bits. I usually to a quick assess at this point to check for damage, then it's time for cleaning.    |
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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The first thing I would recommend is to find a local engine shop or similar and pay them to put it through their hot wash. Before I started building engines as a job I used to do it at home with scrubbing brushes and various chemicals and it's just hard work. We usually charge £40-60 to stick stuff (say a bottom end in bits) through the wash and blast it off with the pressure washer, which compared to the time spent hand cleaning is worth every penny imo. Plus it'll come up a lot cleaner, especially aluminium. All the ferrous parts and nuts/bolts can be dunked in a tank of Traffic Film Remover, left overnight then pressure washed off. This removes all discolouration, carbon build up, oil, dirt, grease and even rust if left a couple of days. You can buy a 20 litre drum from less than 20 quid and it saves so much time it's definitely worth having. I use a 20 litre drum with the side cut out to make a lid at home. So far I've done the crank - this was left in TFR overnight, pressure washed, polished, measured then pressure washed again and it's ready to fit. Looks like the day it came out of the factory.   The block has had a few hours in the hot tank to try and get rid of the god awful silver paint somebody had put on it. Coming up pretty well so far. It's now also in the TFR to remove the rust from the water jacket and other areas.   And that's where I'm at so far. It's a side job so I'm trying to do a bit on my breaks every day. |
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Very interesting reading  All the ferrous parts and nuts/bolts can be dunked in a tank of Traffic Film Remover, left overnight then pressure washed off. This removes all discolouration, carbon build up, oil, dirt, grease and even rust if left a couple of days. You can buy a 20 litre drum from less than 20 quid and it saves so much time it's definitely worth having. I use a 20 litre drum with the side cut out to make a lid at home. So far I've done the crank - this was left in TFR overnight, pressure washed, polished, measured then pressure washed again and it's ready to fit. Looks like the day it came out of the factory. Noting that you state that TFR was used for the ferrous parts, is is also ok to use on non-ferrous, such as pistons or small alloy castings? |
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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No definitely not for use on aluminium. It eats into it if left for longer than a few minutes and left overnight there would be bits missing. We use it in the pressure washer (2-4% added) on aluminium and it's fine as long as you rinse it straight after. On a freshly machined face (head after skimming etc) it starts to mark the surface within a minute or 2 if left to stand on there.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Though the only good use of it is on non structural parts if you get your timing right you can make plain aluminium look like cast magnesium.
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Ah - suspected it might be something like that & thank you for the detailed info. I'm guessing that there isn't anything suitble that will work on ally is there?
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Excellent thread. Looking forward to more.
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Still learning...still spending...still breaking things!
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Ah - suspected it might be something like that & thank you for the detailed info. I'm guessing that there isn't anything suitble that will work on ally is there? Alloy wheel cleaner is supposed to be the be |
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,189
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jan 10, 2021 22:37:11 GMT
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A great read indeed!
I'm intrigued into the pressure washing and polishing process on the crank. I'd have thought flash rust may have been a problem with pressure washing. How do you get around that?
How did you go about polishing the crank and what did you use to do that?
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jan 10, 2021 23:58:08 GMT
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A great read indeed! I'm intrigued into the pressure washing and polishing process on the crank. I'd have thought flash rust may have been a problem with pressure washing. How do you get around that? How did you go about polishing the crank and what did you use to do that? Hot pressure washers/steamers are the dogs testicles for finish cleaning. I've worked at other companies who don't use them and end up fannying around with pipe brushes and brake cleaner etc and it takes ages. With the steamer it just blasts every last bit of curse word off and you can do oil galleries in seconds. Flash rusting does happen, you've just gotta be quick drying it off with a airline. As soon as I took the photos I covered it in maintenance spray, then just a quick brake clean off before use. You can just wipe the rust off with your finger in most cases though, takes a couple of days to bite. For crank polishing we just put them in the crank grinder then we've got a big belt sander type thing to do the polishing. Similar to this but not the same. There's a knack to getting it right and it's very easy to remove too much material.  For wide journal stuff (V8s) we just hold the tape and walk it along the journal as it spins as it gives a better finish. Could do that with a lathe if you have access to one. |
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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And an example of how it'll end up. L400 Delica block for my bus. Was a real mess when I started. Completely bare metalled, bored to +0.5mm and decked.   |
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jan 11, 2021 17:47:00 GMT
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Work is absolutely mental busy so trying to get all the small bits sorted. Here's the mains caps after a couple of days in the TFR and a light flexy hone before cleaning.  |
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jan 15, 2021 18:06:33 GMT
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Got the big bit almost there. Need to change the TFR out on Monday so I can give the block a final dunk and get the last of the rust and paint off. It's been in there all week but it's pretty old TFR and it gets a hard life (used to clean plastic intake manifolds out etc). This is as it came out of the TFR and then a 5 minute going over with the Bert to knock any scaly bits of rust off.   Then after a quick blast off with the pressure washer. Definitely improving. Still a small amount of surface rust to get rid of before paint.   Then onto the honer to sort the bores out. Took them to +0.0015" (1.5 thou, 1/5 human pube) over standard to clear. As a rule on "modern" engines with skinny piston rings, depending on bore size you can go to around +2.5 thou and not notice any difference in engine performance or longevity. Smaller bores can go a bit more. From testing on a couple of engines anything over +3.5 thou and they start getting a bit of piston slap when cold.   And then a quick go over with the bog brush to put a plateau honed finish on the bores. This basically smooths out the peaks created by the honing stones.   And finally a quick block off of the sump mounting face then onto the grinder to do the deck face. Didn't need much, 3 or 4 thou. Looks nice though.  Fin!  |
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Jan 16, 2021 10:42:52 GMT
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Great stuff , i really enjoy seeing the process of rebuilding engines and what you can get away with , ever since reading loads of CCC mags as a kid and teaching myself what all the bits were.
I'll deffo be reading more of this and anything similar you put up .
Any chance of you doing some bits on any oddities you come across at work ?
Cheers.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jan 16, 2021 13:55:21 GMT
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Great stuff , i really enjoy seeing the process of rebuilding engines and what you can get away with , ever since reading loads of CCC mags as a kid and teaching myself what all the bits were. I'll deffo be reading more of this and anything similar you put up . Any chance of you doing some bits on any oddities you come across at work ? Cheers. Yeah I can add to this thread. Most of the specialist stuff we do is V8s (makes me desperate to see Made in China on parts when working with the garbage that comes out of America) but we do a fair bit of other stuff too. |
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Jan 18, 2021 18:18:40 GMT
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One of the best mistakes I made with Tom on the beetle engine was knocking the small end bearings out.
Took them to a machine shop, the guy obviously thought I was an idiot, but explained that I was building the engine with Tom and he softened a bit and let us go in and collect the rods on a Saturday morning and gave us a guided tour.
Was really interesting, so will also be watching with interest. Thanks
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jan 25, 2021 18:38:02 GMT
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Almost ready to put it back together. Left the block in some fresh TFR over the weekend which has killed the remaining rust off. Gave it a good steam off then dried it with a airline.  And then stuck it on a stand and gave it a few coats of zinc primer. I prefer spray to brush on paint as it keeps all the definition of the casting. The best thing about TFR is it all the oil out of the casting so pretty much any paint sticks really well. I thought I'd mention masking as it always seems to be a contentious subject with engine builders and is properly time consuming - I don't bother. In my experience as long as the block is degreased properly the paint won't come off and contaminate the oil or whatever people suggest. I just paint it then wipe off any over spray on machined surfaces with thinners on a rag. A couple of years back I purposefully painted a regular customers Transit engine silver so it would show up in the oil, it recently clicked over 120,000 miles on "my" engine (twice as much as it managed on the factory version lol) and every time it gets serviced there is nothing in the filter. That is with no primer, just silver paint shot straight on (I only go to this sort of trouble with 'special' stuff normal recon is just a quick descale and wash/paint rather than full de-rust Anyway. Primed   I'll give it a coat of black in the morning then it'll get wrapped up to come home for building. |
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jan 27, 2021 14:46:51 GMT
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Jan 31, 2021 19:58:37 GMT
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Was hoping to get this put together this weekend but I've been pretty lazy so will have to do it one evening. I sand blasted the front cover and sump at work:- a chat about sand blasting engine parts. If you're wanting to spruce up engine parts nothing beats getting them blasted. It brings out all the details in the casting and generally looks pretty swish. However it's also one of the worst things you can get inside an engine for longevity. It will absolutely destroy the rotating assembly in very short order, the big expensive bits as well not just replaceable bearings. Shale stock car engines are the worst, closely followed by sand. They stop making oil pressure, you strip them down and on the face of it they look OK, then you measure them and every journal on the crank will be several thou down, valve guides will be like a prick in a shirt sleeve, valves will be worn etc. It gets very expensive very quickly repairing them. So - the number two cause (after bad mapping) I see in classic/modified engines is people who have powder coated rocker covers. They are sand blasted with the breather baffles left in, and once the engine is run all the sand that's in there drops back out into the oil and its game over. There is a easy way to stop this happening, and that is that you need to remove every last thing from the item you want blasted, even if the baffle is riveted in. You then need to block up every threaded hole with a suitable bolt. Every single surface then needs to be blasted, then the bolts removed before cleaning. Several goes over with a pressure washer then dried to ensure its clean. If there is any oil residue, carbon buildup, silicon sealer etc left its not clean enough. I've seen quite a lot about vapour blasting engine blocks and have had one done myself. That had all gallery and core plugs removed and was hot tanked and pressure washed off several times. There was still sand coming out of it several months later as it dried. It really is a curse word to get out of blocks etc as it squashes and sticks to surfaces quite easily when wet. Anyway here's the sump and front cover after blasting, a quick coat of high build and a coat of dark silver. I wish we lived in a world where I could leave stuff bare ally, but as it is it looks absolutely beautiful until the first person touches it and then it looks curse word, so paint it is.   |
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93fxdl
Posted a lot
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Posts: 1,999
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Thought using crushed walnut shell was the go to for blasting engines and gearboxes, any left behind will be eaten by the engine
Ttfn Glenn
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