hopeso
Part of things
Posts: 340
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I have in the past looked at buying an old Jaguar or Daimler to take to shows and for a nice days drive up the coast etc.
However when I looked at what was on the market it became apparent that some could be a bit of a money pit, not regarding repairs as such but with regards to tires and service costs.
Has anyone here got a real life handle on the costs of running one and what engine, spec, model etc I should be aiming for.
There have been some very nice looking Jags for sale recently but to be honest I don't know one model from another. Looking for information on what is the best to buy is a minefield with plenty of conflicting advice.
I understand they are not in the same league as say running a Nissan Micra, and I don't expect to run one on a shoestring but when I looked into the possibility of getting one before the tyre choice was very limited as the one I was looking at ran on metric sized tyres which were very expensive to purchase.
So, if anyone has bought fairly recently a sub 2 grand Jaguar can you give me an idea of what model to look for and which ones to avoid like the plague.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,189
Club RR Member Number: 170
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People will say to avoid the V8s like the plague, and that they'll ruin your life. They won't. Many are on big miles for that reason. However, I would see if anyone you buy has:
-The latest tensioners and water pump fitted ; Jaguar updated the tensioners around 3 times in their production. It's about a £600 job to do if the car doesn't have it done. -Signs of regular servicing. Things like coilpacks are cheap. -Carefully warm up Nikasil engines. If they are around now, they will be fine, but a bit of extra care goes a long way.
Spark plugs are pricey due to be platinums. But then you don't change them as often. Many cars (in general) will have them after the mid 90s anyway, so that's a minor issue. Servicing is simple on these and not pricey.
The gearboxes can play havoc on the X308s. A rebuild is around £1.5k, but DMFs in similarly sized manual cars can end up costing £1-1.5k to change anyway. I know it did in my Mondeo (parts alone is £800 on that!), and the M3 wouldn't be much different.
Tyres can be pricey too. Maybe not newer BMW pricey, but also far pricier than say a Micra. Suspension bits can get costly but again, not too stupid (but read on).
The 6 Pot cars are reliable but they are now old, so other bits can go on them. Rot is also a big problem on pre-X350 Jags, especially where you can't see (chassis legs, and sills), so check here carefully.
The X350 cars are good, but they have other issues: -Brake lines seem to rot for fun on these -The air suspension is comfy but it can be pricey to fix, especially if you sit on problems as opposed to dealing with them there and then. This problem however affects any car out there with air suspension from the factory. -Early cars can suffer from alloy corrosion. Post 05 cars tend to be the best to go with
They are however probably the nicest drive, with them being very light on their feet for their size.
But like anything, buy the best example of what you can afford. A 'project' can soon become a moneypit. As an example, I almost bought a 1995 X300 XJR 6 pot years ago for £1500. It was one of our own selling it, and he is a pleasant chap to deal with and let me view the car pretty much on my own accord. However, I did manage to see it would need alot to make it right, which would cost:
-Wing ; Different colour, albeit slightly ; £200-300 once spraying it to blend in with the door? -Bodywork; Generally good, but I recall it had lacquer peel on another panel or two. So maybe £300-500 to sort this? -Headlining : Sagged badly : £170 for a new one, but the rear screen needs removing I believe to do this. -Tyres : Rears were part-worn and old PZeros, fronts were cheapo budgets with very little tread. That would be £600-700 for decent rubber all round -Exhaust : The MOT said it had a slight leak. I can say the leak was very audible and the exhaust system looked very rusty from the front to the back. You could go for a Mild-Steel setup for £350, but it makes sense to go Stainless, but that's £600-700 for the system, and wrestling to take the old seized setup off. -Seats : the interior bar the headlining was great. The driver's seat did have a rip however. Not a problem but that's another £200 for a trimmer to sort out, short of buying a used seat from a breaker.
All of a sudden, that £1.5k XJR would become a £3.5k+ XJR. Sure, it could be done over time, which would soften the blow, and you know as you've done the work, it would be right, but it goes to show how quickly the costs can gather up on a 'project' or a light restoration.
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hopeso
Part of things
Posts: 340
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Thank you, that's the sort of information I'm looking for.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,189
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Nov 15, 2020 20:29:26 GMT
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If I was buying one, I'd get either a decent XJ6 or an XJ8.
I wouldn't discount the X350s, but again, get the best example. The only engine I wouldn't touch would be the 2.7 Turbo Diesel. They work well, but if you even think about neglecting them, through a lack of a service, living with a duff injector, or having a bad crank damper etc. they WILL snap the crank ; it's a known fault on them and the 3.0 after them as well.
The V6s in the X350s are really all of the engine that you need really.
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Nov 15, 2020 20:36:52 GMT
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From experience... X300 straight six with a good spec. Budget £2k for the car (I know its over budget) then allow for another £1k on top to get it sorted. Even major things will be less expensive than modern folk are spending on their modern finance euro boxes. Mechanical issues are cheaper than rot.
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Nov 15, 2020 21:42:15 GMT
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As a Parts Department Manager at a Jaguar main dealer (and a Jaguar fan), I'd definitely say that a sub £2000 car of any model will most likely be a money pit unless you are lucky enough to drop on a minter. I'm guessing for that budget you'll be looking at late 90's early 00's XJ's and the S-Type. (We'll ignore the X-type) Id generally consider a Jag in that price range to be a project car.
When old Jags are nice they are a fantastic luxury retro ride, however, when the are bad, they are really bad! Old age is the worst enemy of a Jaguar, they just don't seem to be very durable.
Parts, genuine or aftermarket, are generally expensive once you get away from your regular service stuff. On the steel bodied cars, rust and rot is a serious problem on most cars before 2010, especially the sills on the S-type.
Mechanicals are generally good, but not when they have been neglected, as most older cars will have been. All Petrols are okay, the v8's are mega. As said before the 2.7 diesels, while very smooth and torquey, are fragile and a money pit when they go wrong, most garages won't even touch them, and if they do they won't work on them again!
Suspension on old Jags is generally complicated, heavily rusted and tired. Working on it for home mechanics is hard work. But it's advanced and sound in design so works really well when in good order, hence the good ride and handling
Interiors are generally nice and durable so don't bother with anything that's tatty, they are a really nice place to be and of course they do drive really well!
There are a lot of Jaguar owners that keep hold of their car for many years and service them pretty well so avoid cars that have had loads of owners, I'd see that as a warning sign.
Basically I'd say be very careful with anything you buy, make sure it has loads of history, check the MOT history for any warning signs. Check and double check the underside for rot, don't buy a diesel and remember that you are one breakdown from a large repair bill!
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Last Edit: Nov 15, 2020 21:56:04 GMT by retroscort
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,829
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Nov 15, 2020 23:31:16 GMT
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All I can suggest is don't get one with LPG. Repaired quite a few with the valve seats dropped.
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Nov 17, 2020 22:46:19 GMT
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If you are after jaguar comfort with cheap running costs why not look at the x type, yes there was all the hype about it being a mondeo but the mondeo is a great drivers car and it means you in the large part get mondeo running costs, after all most modern audis are the same as skodas under the skin.
Real problem will be finding one which has been looked after and a diesel which has not driven to the moon and back.
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Nov 18, 2020 10:41:56 GMT
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As above, mk2 son found an x type, mot’d , not far from us so we went to have a look Recently serviced, that’ll be why the brake fluid is black then Its a bit big for me - that’s why every panel is damaged to some degree When I crunched through both sills we decided it wasn’t cheap enough!
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hopeso
Part of things
Posts: 340
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Nov 18, 2020 16:19:18 GMT
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I have looked at the x type but they vary so much in condition and mileage. Diesel ones have big mileage which suggests that they are a mile muncher and therefore should be reliable if not wore out.
The only one I have ever looked at sounded like a bag of spanners and cost the owner a pretty penny to have the clutch and flywheel replaced and it still sounded rough.
Not too sure it would be what I'm looking for as it's a bit of luxury driving experience I wish to have. The Mondeo underpinnings don't worry me and I don't need a diesel, a v6 petrol would be nice.
The search goes on.
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adam73bgt
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,861
Club RR Member Number: 58
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Nov 18, 2020 17:30:57 GMT
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I've dabbled in cheap Jags twice, the first was a 4.0 XJ40 Sovereign which I bought in 2014 for about £1300 from memory and had for just under a year. I think values of these have moved on since however. forum.retro-rides.org/thread/167446/1993-jaguar-sovereign-farewell-22Being a late '40, they have more in common in the electrics with the X300 that followed so I didn't have any major electrical issues with it. Found it had a fairly rare "in between years" air con condensor that needed replacing but managed to find a part for a reasonable amount. It did have rust bubbles here and there that would have needed further investigation if I had kept it longer. Fuel economy for the journeys I was doing was one of the worst of cars I've owned and it never felt massively quick, there is a kit to alter the ignition timing on these which may have helped. Was a very comfortable drive and handled fairly well for what it was. My second cheap Jag was earlier this year when I got given my brothers S Type 3.0 V6 manual. About £2k's worth of Jag when I came to sell it. This was a lovely spec car and I'd always fancied a rwd manual Jaguar, but it wasn't perfect. The clutch was fairly heavy in traffic and the shifting not as crisp as I'd have liked but on the motorways it was lovely. I didn't have it for long so couldn't report on any major faults found in my time with it, but I did like it. Part of me would like an S Type R while they're still bargain basement but I'm not in the position for that at the moment
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Nov 18, 2020 17:38:03 GMT
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I drove several S type R’s when demonstrating They are an awesome car, and id love one if time and finances allowed
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,189
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Nov 18, 2020 23:05:55 GMT
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I've dabbled in cheap Jags twice, the first was a 4.0 XJ40 Sovereign which I bought in 2014 for about £1300 from memory and had for just under a year. I think values of these have moved on since however. forum.retro-rides.org/thread/167446/1993-jaguar-sovereign-farewell-22Being a late '40, they have more in common in the electrics with the X300 that followed so I didn't have any major electrical issues with it. Found it had a fairly rare "in between years" air con condensor that needed replacing but managed to find a part for a reasonable amount. It did have rust bubbles here and there that would have needed further investigation if I had kept it longer. Fuel economy for the journeys I was doing was one of the worst of cars I've owned and it never felt massively quick, there is a kit to alter the ignition timing on these which may have helped. Was a very comfortable drive and handled fairly well for what it was. My second cheap Jag was earlier this year when I got given my brothers S Type 3.0 V6 manual. About £2k's worth of Jag when I came to sell it. This was a lovely spec car and I'd always fancied a rwd manual Jaguar, but it wasn't perfect. The clutch was fairly heavy in traffic and the shifting not as crisp as I'd have liked but on the motorways it was lovely. I didn't have it for long so couldn't report on any major faults found in my time with it, but I did like it. Part of me would like an S Type R while they're still bargain basement but I'm not in the position for that at the moment Nooo! You got rid? A shame, but needs must at times. The ignition you allude to, if similar to what someone I know did with benefits does make a difference.
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Nov 22, 2020 21:42:43 GMT
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All older Jaguars can be great cars but also have the potential to become expensive trouble For under 2K you can get a nice XJ40, a reasonable 3.2 X300 or a 3.2 v8 Always insist on a decent test drive and not just round the block. If it drives smoothly, autobox operates nicely and steering and brakes feel good then you are in with a decent chance. Avoid anything obviously neglected and try to keep the miles on the lower side of average if you can, if the miles are high make sure there is evidence of servicing prefer a Jag specialist. Avoid all diesels they will be expensive and even specialists tend to avoid them. The v8 cars are great drivers and the late automatic gearbox is one of the best, but make sure you get the fluid changed because it is not without problems if neglected. By paying a bit more for a good car to start out with you can aviod the expensive issues that go with Cheap "bargain " problem project cars.
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This thread has become relevant to my interests. My youngest has his eye on a '92 XJ40 3.2 litre six. I'm well aware that they're a gas hogging whale but just how hungry are they? We're used to mid 20's mpg from my daily Falcon (a 3.9 litre six) so not afraid of something with a bit of a thirst.
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vitessetony
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,055
Club RR Member Number: 114
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I would say for sub £2k you need to be buying on condition rather than specific model, I've owned an ford era S type, a series 3 XJ6 a modern XF and currently an x300 3.2 straight 6.
All were very good cars with the exception of the S type but I bought it blind and trusted the sellers description of it.
Out of those cars the S type and the X300 would be doable in your budget but condition is the most important thing here, like has been mentioned rust can be a big issue and the mechanicals on the X300 are getting on a bit.
As an example my current X300 I bought for a shade under £3k but it is a manual and the body structure is mint, the panels have a few dings in and the paint is just okay but there is no rust at all on the body of the car.
Having said that it developed a running problem which to cut a long story short required the ECU to be reset, not an issue normally, however jaguar did not use standardised software and so you have to find someone who has the old dealer scan tool. I happened to find a chap local to me that has one however it could only read 40% of the ECU for some reason and now the ECU is out of the car off to a specialist to be reprogrammed.
The point I suppose I'm trying to make is like any older car they are going to have issues and you need to be prepared for that, look at a few and buy the best example you can, with the exception of the running issue I have had, the straight 6 engines have a fantastic reliability record but are getting thin on the ground.
When all is well they are lovely places to be and lovely to drive, I've had lots of cars over the years and I'm never parting with my XJ6, good luck with your search!
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