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WTF is a roll hoop or cage gonna help with on a roadster running on sand, apart from stop the car really really quickly so the driver with snapped neck can be extracted faster? That’s been said multiple times. Tbh, my view is it’s what happens when you have to get official bodies involved to make an event happen. What you want to do gets compromised and watered down to fit other peoples standards. The first couple of years were not like this as it was under the radar a bit. To run a motorsport event in the UK you have to have a licence. To get that licence you have to adhere to the H&S rules of one of the governing bodies (and there’s only 2 iirc). Even if those H&S rules don’t fit your event or the cars Running at it, which is exactly the situation here. The rules are written based on tarmac racing, As no one else races on sand, and the safely features are designed to work onhard surfaces. Ok the ‘rules’ don’t effect a good proportion of the cars as all the banger powered and most of the flathead v8 stuff doesn’t go fast enough. But personally I want a hot rod that goes fast so it’s got a ‘late’ (1957) OHV in it with twice the power of a flatty. The VHRA want to run ‘period’ Events, but basically aren’t allowed to because of the rules. On one hand all cars have to look like they were built in the 50s, crossplies and beam axle and no modern bits Etc., but then on the other they have to have obviously modern looking safety equipment fitted or they’re not allowed to run. It’s all a bit convoluted and stupid, but what it comes down to is there’s nowhere else where you get to hoon down a beach at the wrong side of a ton in a hot rod without people getting in the way, so some concessions have to be made I guess. It’s just making those concessions not look curse word that’s the issue. I have no issues with safety requirements, but I do not comprehend why the RAC or MSA should have exclusive rights to dictate what is acceptable in different forms of motor sports in the UK, For example a friend of mine campaigned a Westfield 7 at club level on hillclimbs with a cage specifically designed by Westfield, this was their Mk1 ( probably only Mk1) rollcage front and rear hoops, plus bracing, last season the cage had to be removed as it did not meet MSA spec due to the tubing being 3mm too small in diameter, to be replaced by an MSA approved single hoop of the correct diameter with minimal bracing. ??
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This is nothing new. The first serious UK drag race rail, Sidney Allard's Hemi powered FED, had to run Lotus Eleven front brakes because there was no drag race organisation yet in the UK. And the road race organisation it fell under mandated them. If I wanted to know what is and isn't helpful as far as safety equipment on the sand, I'd go talk to the people who run ( or ran ) the beach races in Guernsey.
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Absolutely heartbreaking to see the after fire pics Dez . Cant even imagine having to deal with all the loss of rare parts, and the destruction of cars before you even had a chance to run them. Great to see you picked the project up again, cant wait to see what you'll do with it...
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Jun 30, 2020 11:42:14 GMT
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That rear spring looks huge! does it really need to be that big?
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markbognor
South East
Posts: 9,970
Club RR Member Number: 56
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Jun 30, 2020 13:02:04 GMT
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Should have been working but was reading this instead. Glad its all coming back together. That side profile is sublime. Seeing the pics of the rear spring pack coming together, I'm never going to complain about W123 front coils again.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jun 30, 2020 18:02:18 GMT
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That’s been said multiple times. Tbh, my view is it’s what happens when you have to get official bodies involved to make an event happen. What you want to do gets compromised and watered down to fit other peoples standards. The first couple of years were not like this as it was under the radar a bit. To run a motorsport event in the UK you have to have a licence. To get that licence you have to adhere to the H&S rules of one of the governing bodies (and there’s only 2 iirc). Even if those H&S rules don’t fit your event or the cars Running at it, which is exactly the situation here. The rules are written based on tarmac racing, As no one else races on sand, and the safely features are designed to work onhard surfaces. Ok the ‘rules’ don’t effect a good proportion of the cars as all the banger powered and most of the flathead v8 stuff doesn’t go fast enough. But personally I want a hot rod that goes fast so it’s got a ‘late’ (1957) OHV in it with twice the power of a flatty. The VHRA want to run ‘period’ Events, but basically aren’t allowed to because of the rules. On one hand all cars have to look like they were built in the 50s, crossplies and beam axle and no modern bits Etc., but then on the other they have to have obviously modern looking safety equipment fitted or they’re not allowed to run. It’s all a bit convoluted and stupid, but what it comes down to is there’s nowhere else where you get to hoon down a beach at the wrong side of a ton in a hot rod without people getting in the way, so some concessions have to be made I guess. It’s just making those concessions not look curse word that’s the issue. I have no issues with safety requirements, but I do not comprehend why the RAC or MSA should have exclusive rights to dictate what is acceptable in different forms of motor sports in the UK, For example a friend of mine campaigned a Westfield 7 at club level on hillclimbs with a cage specifically designed by Westfield, this was their Mk1 ( probably only Mk1) rollcage front and rear hoops, plus bracing, last season the cage had to be removed as it did not meet MSA spec due to the tubing being 3mm too small in diameter, to be replaced by an MSA approved single hoop of the correct diameter with minimal bracing. ?? Most of the MSA regs are pointless. It’s one of the reasons I largely avoid motorsport, cos they’re sticking their noses in everywhere.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jun 30, 2020 18:06:42 GMT
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This is nothing new. The first serious UK drag race rail, Sidney Allard's Hemi powered FED, had to run Lotus Eleven front brakes because there was no drag race organisation yet in the UK. And the road race organisation it fell under mandated them. If I wanted to know what is and isn't helpful as far as safety equipment on the sand, I'd go talk to the people who run ( or ran ) the beach races in Guernsey. That’s a fairly typical example. Anyone who’s ever dragged knows what stopping at the top end is like in anything remotely quick. There’s a very good reason most dragsters only have rear brakes. They could also look to some of the many American organisations dedicated Specifically to running on various soft surfaces, like sand, dirt ovals and salt, and adopt their guidelines for events where their own rules are not suitable, like pendine. But that would mean admitting the mighty MSA aren’t infallible, so would never happen.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jun 30, 2020 18:11:11 GMT
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That rear spring looks huge! does it really need to be that big? Probably not, but that’s how they did things back then. It’s actually a lot cleverer design than most people give it credit for, as it was basically designed before dampers/shock absorbers were a thing, or certainly a particularly effective thing, so the spring is to an extent self-damping due to the shape. They’re also sort of more than one spring, the 3 distinct separate curves mean you have a soft section on each side that acts sort of independently, then a stiffer section in the middle that takes out of the big hits from both sides.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jun 30, 2020 18:13:21 GMT
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Absolutely heartbreaking to see the after fire pics Dez . Cant even imagine having to deal with all the loss of rare parts, and the destruction of cars before you even had a chance to run them. Great to see you picked the project up again, cant wait to see what you'll do with it... The seats were the only major loss. The rest I can redo or get hold of without too much trouble. It’s not even tons of work to replicate the stuff I’ve lost. I think it the body had got damaged as well it may have been a different matter.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jun 30, 2020 18:15:17 GMT
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Should have been working but was reading this instead. Glad its all coming back together. That side profile is sublime. Seeing the pics of the rear spring pack coming together, I'm never going to complain about W123 front coils again. Probably why I’m not particularly phased by coils on anything, compared to pretensioned leafs They’re a doddle!
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Jun 30, 2020 20:14:37 GMT
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This is nothing new. The first serious UK drag race rail, Sidney Allard's Hemi powered FED, had to run Lotus Eleven front brakes because there was no drag race organisation yet in the UK. And the road race organisation it fell under mandated them. If I wanted to know what is and isn't helpful as far as safety equipment on the sand, I'd go talk to the people who run ( or ran ) the beach races in Guernsey. That’s a fairly typical example. Anyone who’s ever dragged knows what stopping at the top end is like in anything remotely quick. There’s a very good reason most dragsters only have rear brakes. They could also look to some of the many American organisations dedicated Specifically to running on various soft surfaces, like sand, dirt ovals and salt, and adopt their guidelines for events where their own rules are not suitable, like pendine. But that would mean admitting the mighty MSA aren’t infallible, so would never happen. Dez " Many a true word spoken in jest.".
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jun 30, 2020 20:14:40 GMT
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Some further historical stuff. The front suspension is based around 1930s ford. The front beam axle is ‘32-‘36, which is essentially the same as a model A one but with an inbuilt 1.5” drop. The split wishbones are ‘36, with the spring-forward mounts removed, then flipped upside down (cos they look better like this) with the front end piecut to correct (and increase) the castor angle. They are a good bit longer than model A ones so still run back to the firewall, so there isn’t a disjointed gap between firewall and suspension. The chopped off original spring mounts have been recycled into headlight mounts. This is then sprung by an essentially stock (but reverse-eyed for more lowness) front spring on a stock front crossmember, but mounted sideways to the wishbones to drop it down considerably, rather than over the top of the axle in the ‘normal’ position. I don’t have a lot of photos of that, and it takes some explaining to someone not familiar with the type of suspension to be honest. But what it means is it’s long and low and capable fo going fast without wandering. It previously had ford f100 11” bendix type self-energising front brakes, on ‘42-‘48 ‘square back’ spindles, as can be seen above. But it now has ‘42-‘48 fully floating ford ‘juice’ brakes with 12” Buick finned ally drums, purely because they look ridiculously cool. I’ve also gone to the more visually appealing 40-41 roundback spindles. They’re called ‘juice’ brakes as ford was actually fairly late going over to hydraulic brakes compared to other manufacturers, they didn’t do it until 1939, well after most other manufacturers, so they were regularly used an an upgrade on earlier cars as with some minor adaptation they fit all the way back to ‘28. To do so was ‘juicing’ your brakes over the original mechanical setup. For scale, that’s a 16” wheel... As you can see the backplates have also gained some speed holes. They actually have even more now. The steering is ‘cowl steer’, as in the steering box is mounted inside the cowl of the body instead of to the chassis. It then sticks through the side of the cowl and has a big long drag link that operates the steering arm on the spindle. This is the structure that hides behind the firewall and supports the steering setup. You can also see the ‘Z’ (step) at the firewall that further lowers the front of the chassis. I'm going to be changing the steering box to something with a more self-supporting column, but otherwise this will stay about the same.
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Last Edit: Jun 30, 2020 20:48:37 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jun 30, 2020 20:46:27 GMT
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Now you’ve probably twigged by now that although this is my ‘model A sedan’ they only thing that’s really model A is the body and a few suspension bits. Luckily it’s not registered as a model A, and has evolved to where it is over many years, so it’s identity is fairly unique and pretty infallible. It’s registered as ‘rebuilt from parts from multiple donors some or all of which may be previously used’ and as such isn’t proporting to be something it’s not, which the DVLA seem happy with. It wears a 60s registration from the original donor car, which is how things were done back then. It’s basically a kit car but from before kit cars existed, and with an original body. This is good for me as I don’t have them paying close scrutiny to the car, but also still benefit from a historical registration. This also means as it’s largely scratchbuilt, most things on it have been done and redone many times over the years. I’ve certainly redone a lot of bits that weren’t up to my standard in the time I’ve had it, including replacing some shady bits of chassis as well as redoing the steering and suspension to make it safer and stronger. When I do stuff I do quite a lot of drawings. I also tend to take pics of those drawings so they’re saved in more than one place. Recently I found the original drawings I did when I first got it and was sorting the chassis out. They extend to the suspension setup and any bracketry too. At one point I did question why I was keeping stuff like this, but with this post fire rebuild, they’ve proved very useful. Some other pics. These were the old seat mounts. They’ll be going in the bin now. Pedal assembly ‘tray’ can stay though-
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Last Edit: Jun 30, 2020 20:49:45 GMT by Dez
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Jun 30, 2020 21:04:28 GMT
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The body itself, apart from the hefty chop and channel, and not having any fenders, running boards or a hood, is fairly stock. It used to have caddy rear lights, a narrowed impala dash and recessed firewall, but I’ve put all that back to stock. My thinking is the car is pretty radical as it is, so doesnt need further gaudiness. In a way keeping some stuff bone stock only emphasises the extremes of the rest. One thing I have done is fitted a 30-31 model A screen visor instead of the plainer 28-29 version. The earlier one looks distinctly home-made to me, it’s just a bit of bent tin. Whereas the later one has some beads and swages to make it look a bit more ‘proper’. I’ve punched it full of big swaged holes otherwise they boom in the wind as speed. They also require a custom header panel to take up all the gaps and make it fit the earlier car properly, so I made that custom with some holes in as well. You can see there it now has a standard model A dash/dash rail/fuel tank(the cowl is the fuel tank) although the tank won’t be used. It’s also had all the stock framing wood replaced with steel to stiffen it up and make it less wobbly. This is a pretty standard thing to do on a hot rod. It’s got a 30-31 grille shell as they’re a touch bigger so allow a little more radiator to fit. As a further illustration of the channel job and how the engine effectively sits raised because of the chassis Z, here is a stock firewall. The motor/bellhousing usually fits blow the bottom edge in the centre, and the. Feet usually sit on the chassis rails. This is it modified to go into mine- And fitted-
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Jun 30, 2020 21:24:37 GMT
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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I always try to. I’ve never been interested in doing average or sub-par work just to pay the bills or whatever. I always try to do the best I possibly can, and if you’re not doing that for yourself then why even bother doing it at all.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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More bits turning up today. First I was quite pleased I found an eBay seller doing these, 9/16”UNF is a fairly oddball size and needing them to specifically be castle nuts I thought would be a problem, but this guy had some old stock listed at very reasonable prices so a set was bought as mine had gone missing. They’re the rear spring clamps that attach it to the chassis. Then, after figuring out what the f-Kthese things are called (valve ferrules apparently) I bought some so I could fit the front tyres. They’re adapters that allow the TR13 size valves on the innertubes fit old wheels with the larger TR15 size holes. Tyres then went on. With practice you can do these without any tools so no chance of scratching the paint. A few bits where cleaned up (wheel nuts mostly) then the wheels went on- That’s a big psychological step as the front is rolling again and looks much more complete. Aside from plumbing the brakes and running some wiring there’s not much to do on the front end other than repainting. It really was remarkably unscathed. So I can go back to sorting out the more damaged end now.
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What is the story with the Lanchester LD10 outside the door?
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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What is the story with the Lanchester LD10 outside the door? Long gone, thankfully.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,790
Club RR Member Number: 34
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So, here’s some more pics I took of the front end setup. Here’s the brakes again, showing that they’ve gained some more speed holes. Also notice how the steering arm is now whittled down into a more aesthetically pleasing shape, with all the square corners rounded off. Another view. The steering side cut-down and rethreaded f100 draglink ends with a new trackrod in between. Here is how the spring mounts to the wishbone. It uses some modified perch pins, theyve been cut down and rethreaded and the angle of them tweaked slightly with the oxyacetylene. These fit through some anti-crush inserts I turned up and welded into the wishbones. It then rides on some bronze bushes I made and is locked off with castle nuts and splitpins. The spring is a reverse eye posies super slider with normal shackles. These are the shocks. More houdallie hydraulic lever arms off a ‘40 ford mounted to the bottom of the chassis rails, tucked behind the beam and spring. They’re actually quite hard to see, and take a decent picture of! Looking up from underneath, you can see the necessary drop links to make them work without binding. These are made out of recycled stock model A spring shackles that were too worn to reuse, so I cut the endplates off and drilled and tapped them to make these. They have bronze bushes inside and mount to a short tube welded to the bottom side of the wishbone. Another view from the rear side showing the linkages again, and the bracketry to the chassis. It also shows how tucked up and out the way they are, an important consideration on something this low. This last pic shows how far behind the beam the spring mounts, and where the trackrod for the steering runs. I’m not a fan of front mount ones for Ackerman reasons, so I wanted it mounted behind the beam. The steering arms are dropped a touch with the oxy again to allow it to clear the wishbones, and to tweak the Ackerman angle slightly due to then large increase in wheelbase. It shows how well the packaging of this area works though, with nothing stuck out to get bashed.
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